-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included
- Thread starter Grand Theft Scratchy
- Start date
SLB1904
Banned
What's wrong with You? It's like you are projecting
Who claimed the ssd is more important than cpu and gpu?
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yep. Richard from DF ran some tests calculating the processing power of Jaguar equivalent Athlon cores and Zen 2 cores and found that they had 6.7x more performance thanks to 2x more threads and IPC gains from Jaguar to Zen and from Zen to Zen 2.“"I think that the big delta between these two consoles, apart from the 3D audio, quick loading and DualSense of course, is on the graphical side of things.”
Seriously though… Jaguar at 1.6 GHz -> 3.5 GHz Ryzen 2?!?
And this is back when they were looking at the gonzalo leaks and assumed PS5 would only be at 3.2 ghz. At 3.5 ghz, the performance boost should be well over 7x compared to the base PS4.
We built a 'next-gen' Zen 2/Navi-based PC - how much faster is it than current-gen consoles?
Development kits are out, game makers are briefed. Sony's PlayStation 5 and Xbox Project Scarlett projects are under wa…
www.eurogamer.net
Krappadizzle
Gold Member
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is a very very large delta, fixed my post as I had a punctuation/grammar mess thereYep. Richard from DF ran some tests calculating the processing power of Jaguar equivalent Athlon cores and Zen 2 cores and found that they had 6.7x more performance thanks to 2x more threads and IPC gains from Jaguar to Zen and from Zen to Zen 2.
And this is back when they were looking at the gonzalo leaks and assumed PS5 would only be at 3.2 ghz. At 3.5 ghz, the performance boost should be well over 7x compared to the base PS4.
We built a 'next-gen' Zen 2/Navi-based PC - how much faster is it than current-gen consoles?
Development kits are out, game makers are briefed. Sony's PlayStation 5 and Xbox Project Scarlett projects are under wa…
.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Watch the road to ps5 video. Cerny explains it all
Ezquimacore
Banned
When people mention why the ps5 games should not be able to run on last gen they always mention the ssd and how the integrated io cause an "impossible port" when that's not true at all (so far). The ssd will do a difference and will make the ps5 better even on crossgen games, but doesn't mean the games are impossible to run on ps4.
CamHostage
Member
But it's been half a year, where are the games (not just the playable games, I'll settle for announcement trailers of games to come in the far-off future) on either console that make use the new CPU processor speed? Heck, where are the games on PC that have been able to shoot for way more than 1.6GHz Jag specs (which has been possible for a long time now) and push incredible physics and AI?“"I think that the big delta between these two consoles, apart from the 3D audio, quick loading and DualSense of course, is on the graphical side of things.”
Seriously though… Jaguar at 1.6 GHz -> 3.5 GHz Ryzen 2?!?
If Sony and Microsoft's cross-gen titles have still been industry-leading technological showcases (and if Sony's 5 next-gen exclusive games are still not drawing a hard line in the sand to push cross-gen off a cliff,) why is everybody so angry that the resources you're imagining they're wasting aren't being utilized? Something will come along (Rift Apart is already doing a nice job of exploiting the SSD's abilities,) but Horizon and assumedly GoW and hopefully Halo (when we see it again, I'm praying it's way more in line with the Slipspace Engine trailer) are where game production technology is right now.
Last edited:
SLB1904
Banned
To know that you need games targeting the ssd speed.
I mean a system needs everything to work together. All the things needs to be balanced. There isn't one thing Is better than the other. And if you do, you got a bottleneck
Last edited:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I am not crazy upset they are not using the PS5 to its fullest potential, but more about pissing on me and telling me it is raining. Sorry for the crude exaggeration, but the glossing over the CPU delta the game director did there is worth mentioning.
The CPU delta is massive between the two consoles and the biggest factor that would prevent a cross generation title… curiously it does not get a mention in a post meant to sell people on the 100% positive effects a cross-generation game brings.
I also think a lot of PC titles be the consoles as baseline and generation jumps is where you see memory and CPU specs spikes as developers target the new console HW.
Last edited:
Astral Dog
Member
Because the game has been in development for years, they knew how to design the sequel around PS4. i see it as PS4 game with many upgrades on PS5 instead of a PS5 game that was gimped down to run on PS4. thats the best way to make it to avoid doing a Cyberpunk
Ezquimacore
Banned
I'm saying the ps5 version will be better thanks to the better hardware and ps4 version will run according to the ps4 hardware. Just like pc game run on gpu/cpu from 8 years ago but looks and perform better on new hardware. Pretty easy concept so I honestly can't comprehend all the drama.
Elder Legend
Banned
Arragoant Sony is Back Baby!
PS3 circa 2006 days once again... weeeee!
PS3 circa 2006 days once again... weeeee!
Last edited:
nikolino840
Member
I have a dejavu
SLB1904
Banned
You will comprehend once you see a proper next gen game in front of you. Some things you need to see with your own eyes
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Again, take some time to do some research on what Sony and MS did with the I/O. GPUs are scalable. CPUs less so, but the gap between the I/O (not just SSD) is so large it completely changes game design possibilities.
I would start with this Cerny interview. I have timestamped the most important bit.
SSD being 100x faster means faster loading. I/O block being 100x faster means way more than just some fancy loading.
This is the I/O in action.
The PS4 Pro version of this gif literally pauses every two seconds while the HDD loads level data into VRAM.
Then you have the CPU which is over 7x more powerful than the PS4 GPUs. This demo below is running on a GTX 970. A GPU roughly on par with the PS4 Pro, and yet it is able to do this insane destruction and weather effects because the more powerful PC CPU was not the limiting factor.
Tomorrow we will find out what DICE plans to do with the extra CPU power. This is their prototype footage from last year. The jaguar CPUs simply would not have allowed this many NPCs on screen at once.
It also has a last gen version in development so we will see just what kind of sacrifices were made to the last gen versions if they can get this prototype running on next gen consoles. Unlike Horizon Forbidden West, this was developed with next gen hardware in mind.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Given that the game started development on the PS4 before being built on PS5 in addition, he's right.
All the engine tech they'll need to develop to fully take advantage of PS5's hardware features didn't exist at the start of development and are very likely currently under development by their engine and tools team as we speak.
Their next game will be built for the ground up for PS5 and in that case, at that time, with their more advanced engine, toolchain and tech, it simply wouldn't be able to run on a PS4.
All the engine tech they'll need to develop to fully take advantage of PS5's hardware features didn't exist at the start of development and are very likely currently under development by their engine and tools team as we speak.
Their next game will be built for the ground up for PS5 and in that case, at that time, with their more advanced engine, toolchain and tech, it simply wouldn't be able to run on a PS4.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Booom, over reacting central here
.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Very much enjoying how people are saying there’s nothing about the Ps5 that isn’t scalable, when the guy who created the Ps5 says there are things that aren’t scalable.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
I can't see how waiting for loading makes it a different game.
Hawking Radiation
Member
I came for the GIFs and jesus christ GAF you did not disappoint
TheGrat1
Member
Oh boy, a bunch of quotes to get through:
PS4 has half the RAM, a significantly weaker CPU, a 5x weaker GPU and 1/100 the peak I/O bandwidth. There is no way a game designed to run on both platforms, especially with the PS4 as lead, could come close to taking advantage of the new hardware outside of a little extra shiny and a higher framerate/resolution.
That being said, PS4 is holding these cross gen games back, period.
So does ID Software not understand hardware?
This. There is no good reason for this to be happening, especially with Gran Turismo and God of War. I could understand if they planned to release Forbidden West at the end of the PS4's life like Ghost and TLOU II but development took a little longer than planned but we have no indication that was what happened. Once it became clear they were not going to make the end of that window (especially since they only had 3 years from ZD's release before the PS5 dropped) they should have scrapped the PS4 plans and built it from the ground up for PS5. Gran Turismo and God of War have 0 excuse, they knew full well those would come out a year+ into PS5's life.
The major difference is that in 3 years (10 year life cycle) Sony will stop making games for the PS4 and based on previous gens those final games will probably be small PSN games and The Show. Even now they have the ability to ignore it (Rift Apart). On the other hand, multiplats and Microsoft Studios specifically will be shackled to the Series S for the rest of the gen.
That being said, PS4 is holding these cross gen games back, period.
Last edited:
GHG
Gold Member
Not this shite again.
Let's finally unshackle ourselves from the crappy 5400rpm hard drive drives that we've been tied to for the best part of 2 decades and then we will be able to see what developers can come up with.
Honestly it's like some people here hate progress.
makaveli60
Member
It’s one of the most amazing games technically, but most of us know this is just the usual marketing bullshit. If it wasn‘t constrained by lastgen it would be even more mindblowing
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
Oh boy, a bunch of quotes to get through:
So does ID Software not understand hardware?
PS4 has half the RAM, a significantly weaker CPU, a 5x weaker GPU and 1/100 the peak I/O bandwidth. There is no way a game designed to run on both platforms, especially with the PS4 as lead, could come close to taking advantage of the new hardware outside of a little extra shiny and a higher framerate/resolution.
This. There is no good reason for this to be happening, especially with Gran Turismo and God of War. I could understand if they planned to release Forbidden West at the end of the PS4's life like Ghost and TLOU II but development took a little longer than planned but we have no indication that was what happened. Once it became clear they were not going to make the end of that window (especially since they only had 3 years from ZD's release before the PS5 dropped) they should have scrapped the PS4 plans and built it from the ground up for PS5. Gran Turismo and God of War have 0 excuse, they knew full well those would come out a year+ into PS5's life/
The major difference is that in 3 years (10 year life cycle) Sony will stop making games for the PS4 and based on previous gens those final games will probably be small PSN games and The Show. Even now they have the ability to ignore it (Rift Apart). On the other hand, multiplats and Microsoft Studios specifically will be shackled to the Series for the rest of the gen.
That being said, PS4 is holding these cross gen games back, period.
Except you have to keep in mind 2 things, series s is far more powerfull than a ps4, and min pc spec will still drag down most games anyhow.
PrimetimeKnight
Member
Last edited:
FunkMiller
Gold Member
It depends entirely on what they set out to achieve. I mean I wouldn't say something like tetris was limited by hardware. If however I wanted to create Ratchet and Clank and the hardware was limiting me then yes. If what they set out to achieve with the game was achievable on a PS4 then they were not limited by it. They wouldn't be anyway because development started on a PS4.
GHG
Gold Member
The latter really grates me.
Stop moaning, use that energy to make some extra money whatever way you can, buy new hardware and enjoy.
Whether the progress originates from PC or a console it shouldn't matter since eventually everyone will benefit.
eastcoastkody
Member
if there is a long elevator ride...i call bs
Kokoloko85
Member
Stfu Lol.
Scalable or not, AI, animations, more interactives worlds are more likely on better hardware.
Scalable or not, AI, animations, more interactives worlds are more likely on better hardware.
TheGrat1
Member
And it is in the best interest of game development that the minimum spec is as high as possible. The Series S' existence does not help in that regard. Imagine if there was no Series S and a MS studio had an idea for a game that would have the Series X's RAM, GPU, and I/O bandwidth equivalents on PC as minimum spec and Phil Spencer by some miracle green lit it. Do not bother because the Series S' existence ensures that that will never happen.
If you genuinely believe that the S is not going to hinder development then tweet at Gneiting and explain to him that he has nothing to worry about.
Last edited:
Esppiral
Member
Reading Neogaf is lots of fun, since the next generation was announced and after reading several threads about several tech demos and games releases the conclusion I get is.
UE 5 lumen and nanite are not possible on Xbox because the SSD is not fast enough.
I/O speed is more important than GPU and CPU power.
Series S will hold back the next generation.
We believe in generations.
Then Sony switchs ship and all of a sudden everyone is fine with crossgen games and everything developed for PS5 can run on PS4 without holding back the PS5 capabilities because reasons... Lol.
UE 5 lumen and nanite are not possible on Xbox because the SSD is not fast enough.
I/O speed is more important than GPU and CPU power.
Series S will hold back the next generation.
We believe in generations.
Then Sony switchs ship and all of a sudden everyone is fine with crossgen games and everything developed for PS5 can run on PS4 without holding back the PS5 capabilities because reasons... Lol.
Last edited:
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yep, and it's 100% a lie! I'm not mad at him lying because I understand the business\marketing of this. But it's still a lie none the less.
Last edited:
TheGrat1
Member
Where are you getting this? Nearly everyone in this thread is calling bullshit and Jim Ryan has been branded a liar on this forum. People may be still be excited for the game but that is different from saying crossgen is "fine." Am I missing something?
I agree it’s pr talk. That’s also what I told people about the UE5 ps5 demo. Sweeney turned himself into a pretzel trying to avoid talking about that demo and Xbox in the same sentence.
From the console speculation and the UE5 ps5 demo thread. He is spot on.
edit: quote from above.
“On the PlayStation 5, we can add so much more detail graphically. We can see the tiny hairs on Aloy’s face, for example.”
Did they really waste rendering on female facial hair? Not saying it’s not accurate but it seems you might want to focus on resolution, lighting, etc over her facial hair.
Last edited:
CamHostage
Member
I get what you're feeling, and for sure when I saw the early PS5 talks and saw the Xbox Project Scarlet specs, I dreamed big. And then, when the June 2020 "PS5 The Future of Gaming" show came around and we saw all these PS5 projects for the first time (Spider-Man Miles Morales, Horizon, Sackboy, GT7, Returnal, R&C Rift Apart, Destruction AS,) I felt like I was getting it (or a first-gen version of it, at least.) But then MS showed the Halo Infinite campaign reveal in July and it was a disasterous black mark on the cross-gen concept (despite my thinking when the Halo Slipspace Engine trailer ran back in 2018 that, "Oh, even cross-gen games are going to be really amazing this time",) and then in September Sony announced that some of its products would be cross-gen, and this FUD of cross-gen started settling in from all around...
Thing is, those videos of Miles Morales and Horizon FW and the rest never changed, and so far, all of the products have lived up to the production quality of those videos. The only thing that changed was the mindset of those who now know more about the products. There goes all the demands of flying mounts in Horizon 2, except they never showed flying mounts in the trailer, and it's not like a streaming game engine can't do flying (it's been brought up before, but there are glitches in Horizon that let you "fly", plus Death Stranding is on Decima and you can fly around there like a crazyman,) so why have we turned against the game based on an imagination of what it can do instead of looking at what it actually can do and what its competition is currently doing?
Well, I'm talking more about the PC indie and exclusive games, the kind of games that used to be prevalent when PC was orders of magnitude stronger than consoles until the next-gen came out and so you'd have Crysis or Battlefield 1942. Those days are gone as game makers shoot for the lucrative console market (sometimes concurrently in development, sometimes afterwards they try to figure out how to squeeze that thing down,) but there are indie studios out there making a name for themselves by going hard on high-end PCs. But, not many. And even Unreal Engine's Chaos Physics still hasn't propagated much in games, despite being a year old now. If it was easy to go beyond what game developers are doing right now because powerful hardware breaks all boundaries, we'd be playing it. Stuff like Besiege and Astroneer are awesome, but the surface still needs to be scratched if we're going to say that no physics simulation possible on a past-gen platform is worthy of a next-gen game.
S
Shodan09
Unconfirmed Member
I mean, it was by definition though wasn't it? Otherwise what's the point in the PS5 existing if everything released for it would run on PS4.
martino
Member
You know something that is possible ? that next decade practices are not the exact same of the previous one....crazy i know.
Negotiator101
Member
What's flying hot to do with it? There's loads of games with flying in it, that's hardly a next gen yardstick is it?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yeah.......but the concept is still the same.
Wandering Leopard
Member
The first game wrapped up development in early 2017, so most of the new game would have been designed around last gen hardware (I don't think there were PS5 devkits at the time).
We'll see how it plays out but there are plenty of core and secondary gameplay mechanics they can improve (from the first game) without making use of what the PS5 brings to the table.
We'll see how it plays out but there are plenty of core and secondary gameplay mechanics they can improve (from the first game) without making use of what the PS5 brings to the table.