The Cartographer
Member
Not even with the 360 E/S?
How is that even possible?
How is that even possible?
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During Epic Apple case, Microsoft lawyer says they've never made a profit selling Xbox consoles
- Thread starter kyliethicc
- Start date
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You forget the RRoD?
jakinov
Member
It’s not all free money. The services are still expensive to run. There’s profit there but royalty revenue traditionally covers hardware R&D and not making a substantially profit on hardware but with online services (and the expectation that companies continue to deliver updates via the internet), if people aren’t paying for it, it’s another thing to offset from their royalty revenue. The royalty cut is also only about 12% for retail which was where most game were sold In the past. That’s why I think when things go fully digital they have less of an excuse of charging for online because many of the services then become an inherent part of the business and their monetization greatly changed for their benefit (I.e 30% instead of 12%).
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's been known forever they've started with significant losses.
But from the OG Xbox, to the 360 they were determined to cut costs.. and then again with the XBO generation. Both Sony and MS weren't willing to do the "huge loss leader" thing.
So it's never been 100% clear if MS ever sold Xbox above BOM later in a generation. Sony has, even with the expensive as hell PS3. (although they cut out the PS2 emotion engine for that)
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Lone Wolf
Member
What’s bad? If no profit, what was their loss?
harmny
Banned
they should start taking a 30% cut for every transaction made in windows
look at apple. they don't develop games. they don't develop consoles. and they are beating microsoft in game revenue
and google is next with android
newzoo.com
look at apple. they don't develop games. they don't develop consoles. and they are beating microsoft in game revenue
and google is next with android
Top Public Video Game Companies | By Revenue | Newzoo
Newzoo's Top Video Game Companies ranking is updated every quarter. Features the top public video game companies by revenues.
newzoo.com
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James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
possibly. But I am more concerned about the game pass model marginalizing the elite tier of software development that Sony currently enjoys
im not suggesting that will realistically happen, but it will be a sad day when we don’t have ambitious, highly expensive, narrative driven games simply because it’s not financially feasible in a monthly subscription model
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
They don't report profits, that can only mean one thing in the business world. No profits worth reporting/losses.
Lone Wolf
Member
They report profits as a whole. And they certainly had net profits.
The Cartographer
Member
That's unrelated to what I'm asking.
The E and S models were introduced in 2010 and 2013 respectively and I just can't understand how is it possible to sell five plus year old console units at a loss.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
they should start taking a 30% cut in every transaction made in windows
look at apple. they don't develop games. they don't develop consoles. and they are beating microsoft in game revenue
and google is next with android
Top Public Video Game Companies | By Revenue | Newzoo
Newzoo's Top Video Game Companies ranking is updated every quarter. Features the top public video game companies by revenues.
Apple sells a device whose primary means of secondary profit is selling games.. that is used extensively for playing games.. Apple has a game subscription service on this device.
For all intents and purposes; the iPhone is a game console.
It is super interesting how it was never the intention though lol
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the cost of online services is shouldered mostly by the devs and publishers themselves, most games are P2P and I doubt Microsoft pays for servers in third party games. The most expensive part of Microsoft and Sonys online service is their store, which should obviously be free to access. XBL gold and PS + is almost pure profit.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They were already so far in a hole, that was my point.
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
Profit as a whole of what? Xbox? No. They haven't reported any profits for Xbox.
harmny
Banned
so a windows computer is a game console too. that's why they should start taking a 30% cut
by that same logic Windows is a gaming OS, this line of reasoning leads to a bunch of pointless conclusions.
The Cartographer
Member
They lost THAT much money repairing red rings? That's hard to believe...
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Why does it matter?
Explain why "it's a general computing device" should effect anything having to do with this case.
I'm not the one leading to any conclusion.. other than, this is a pointless distinction.
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rickybooby87
Member
PS3? No. PS4? Yes. Day one actually, almost $20 bucks a unit.
A.Romero
Member
I'm really amazed at some opinions.
I don't care about Apple and their devices but they have every right to handle their ecosystem as they see fit. The amount of money they are making should not be of any importance to the core issue.
If Sony/Microsoft services were mostly profit, you can bet they would be looking for ways to sweeten the deal like heavier discounts or other ways to show value. Sony's profits are not that high and we all know Microsoft is betting about making the big bucks in the future so they are heavily investing now.
I know is not common knowledge but it is not cheap to provide any kind of services to hundreds of millions of devices worldwide.
I don't care about Apple and their devices but they have every right to handle their ecosystem as they see fit. The amount of money they are making should not be of any importance to the core issue.
If Sony/Microsoft services were mostly profit, you can bet they would be looking for ways to sweeten the deal like heavier discounts or other ways to show value. Sony's profits are not that high and we all know Microsoft is betting about making the big bucks in the future so they are heavily investing now.
I know is not common knowledge but it is not cheap to provide any kind of services to hundreds of millions of devices worldwide.
theHFIC
Member
They also have a music subscription service, a dedicated episodic and movie subscription service and a dedicated Music and Video store.
For all intents and purposes the iPhone is a music and video playback device along with a phone
They also have a Fitness subscription service.
For all intents and purposes the iPhone is a device to assist with staying fit along with a phone.
They also have a news subscription service.
For all intents and purposes the iPhone is a news reading device along with being a phone.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
What is your point?
Microsoft and Sony both have video stores on their "game console"..
MS dabbled in having a music service too... .and.. a fitness one.. and... TV specific functionalities..
They've both had web browsers in the past.
But again, why should this matter?
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
If you would so kindly post the XBOX division profits here, you'll have my thanks.
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Magic Carpet
Member
They also have a gamepass like service in apple arcade. 5 bucks a month and get a selection of games.
Kilau
Gold Member
Lone Wolf
Member
I’m talking about Microsoft as a whole.
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
And I was always talking about Xbox.
Lone Wolf
Member
So Xbox is losing money?
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Why do you care?
A company being willing to sell things to us for less than they cost, is a benefit to us. Xbox is a strategic division for MS.
A company trying to squeeze profits out of us because their gaming division is core to their company profits.. isn't some benefit to us consumers.
Granted, some of this is mismanagement.. lack of experience with hardware, etc.. but I reallllly don't get cheering on the profits of companies that sell me products.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
They both have actually. It's MS that can't figure out how to turn a profit on the hardware.
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
Definitely.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They were already in the hole at selling the console at a loss, then this,
How Microsoft spent $1 billion on a simple mistake with its best game console
Microsoft spent over $1 billion fixing the "Red Ring of Death" mistake with its Xbox 360 game console. This is how it happened.
www.businessinsider.com
Lone Wolf
Member
If you would so kindly post the XBOX division profits here, you'll have my thanks.
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
Huh? They don't post profits that means losses, my friend. Read between the lines.
theHFIC
Member
Because you generalize all sales from the App store for iPhone as just games. I am sure that gaming makes up a large part of the App Store's contents and profits but to consider iOS devices as the secondary function as a phone / texting device is just wrong and doesn't seem to have any facts to back it up.
There are numerous services that Apple offers that all contribute to one bottom line. If you are going to say that Games are the main earner for Apple, show some numbers that back this up instead of speaking on opinion.
Dave_at_Home
Member
I suppose that's worst case scenario. As long as PlayStations continue selling like crazy for the reasons they do, it would be foolish to abandon what drives so many people to the platform. If that day were to ever arrive, than I would be done with gaming. Well, not entirely true, I'd stick to the old stuff I guess.
Zathalus
Member
They don't post profits for any division, just the company as a whole.
Does that mean every division is loosing money then? But where does the (substantial) overall profit come from?
LordBlodgett
Member
Your second point is actually why Epic has a chance in this lawsuit. Microsoft had actually been investigated for antitrust violations in 1992 and 1994, and in 1994 Microsoft agreed that they would not use their dominant position in the OS field to push their own non-OS software over competitors. Of course that is not what happened, Microsoft used it's dominant position to stifle competitors in browsers on the Windows platform and basically bankrupted the competition.
Apple might not have the same monopoly power over Cell Phone OS that Microsoft was in, but they are also unique. Epic didn't sue Google first because they are only an OS. Any hardware manufacturer can use Android, and also you are allowed to install software on Android OS that is not approved by Google.
Apple is a profitable hardware manufacturer, which also has a closed end OS that is not allowed to run on other hardware. You cannot run non Apple approved apps on an Apple device. Also they are treating different types of apps very differently, and this is where they could run into anti-competitive problems:
Music: Apple iTunes exists, but you can also access Spotify, Pandora, Deezer, etc.....
Movies & TV: iTunes has a market, or you can stream with Apple TV, but you can also use services like Netflix, Vudu, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc....
Games: You can buy games separately or Use Apple Arcade. Streaming platforms are not allowed.....
the economy itself, a gigantic local software industry that effects almost every single other industry and normal participation in modern society relies on general computing devices like smart phones and computers, game consoles are a luxury that retains influence in only one sector of the economy and grants access to a completely unnecessary part of modern life.
I take issue with equating iOS devices with consoles because apple is using slimy tactics to pursue that end in order to use them as a shield for their lazy profit scraping empire.
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Magnific0giganticus
Banned
Are you seriously asking where does MS profit for the whole company comes from? Do you know what Microsoft is? They can have several big divisions in the red for years and that's barely a mosquito sting to them.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's their largest earner.. why wouldn't it be? Just check their store at any moment.. the top earning apps are almost always all games.
App Store earns $72.3 billion in 2020, almost double Google Play revenues | AppleInsider
New figures for mobile app revenue claim that Apple's App Store took in $72.3 billion during 2020, a rise of almost a third from the previous year.
appleinsider.com
App Store earns $72.3 billion in 2020 said:
That's 65%.
But again.. why does this matter in this case?
They are all devices where the manufacturers make the rules of what can and can't sell. and how those things can or can't sell.... iOS is far less restrictive than Xbox or Playstation.. and? What does that have to do with whether they should or shouldn't be allowed to charge a 30% cut?
theHFIC
Member
Apple is taking this approach because just like consoles iPhones and iPads are a marriage of hardware and software developed, sold, and maintained by the same company.
They all make the same widget from top to bottom and the guts that goes inside it. Because they are all self contained widgets that are NOT computers (except for the PS3 when it could run Linux for Import/Export Tax breaks), they should be allowed to dictate what is allowed into the machine.
Zathalus
Member
Dude, I'm using your own logic against you. You are claiming Xbox is not making a profit because Microsoft only shares revenue numbers for each division, be it Windows, Azure, or Xbox. Going by your claim that if a division does not have its profits disclosed it thus means the division is not making any profit. Hence no divisions are making a profit despite the fact that Microsoft reported a very healthy profit overall.
Microsoft not reporting profit for a division does not mean anything by itself, you cannot draw any conclusions from that.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
And yet this entire case is about a gaming company wanting to sell games on that device.. are games not a luxury on the device?
I'm not equating anything.. I'm saying that the iPhone is used as a game console, by TONS of people... and in fact the majority of money spent on the device is for games.. a total luxury.
I use my iPhone for business.. and Apple takes 0$ of that money other than maybe a few $99 dev licenses.. my company has Outlook and Teams and other Office 365 apps on iOS... a couple of special company specific apps too (one for birthday reminders, another for meeting rooms, another for time entry). None of these things cost my company any sort of significant money, Microsoft doesn't have to pay Apple any more than the dev licenses, etc. to build the Office apps millions use either.
This entire case is about the luxury portion of iOS.... which is where the majority of the money is spent.
Games.. music.. movies..
Most productivity apps are free, and tied to a separate subscription that Apple doesn't take a cut of, like my Office 365 sub.
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Dream-Knife
Banned
I sold my iPhone in February so maybe something big has changed since then, but you couldn't install stuff outside of the Apple store, meaning Apple has a complete monopoly on it. You also can't add a micro SD, so you have to buy more of apples magic memory that costs 2-3x the current market value.
Barakov
Member
Simon Says Fuck This Game Box.
Negotiator101
Member
This says ever though, so that would mean 360 as well right? if that's the case then surely the PS3 never made a profit for Sony as it was very expensive to make.
not when their devices are arguably as important as public utilities and they have a 60% marketshare in the country in which this lawsuit is being held. The amount of power, the amount of drag apple is now applying to many countries software industries while providing little to no effort to support or sustain these industries justifies scrutiny. Developers fucking hate apple for a reason but they are forced to deal with them regardless.
theHFIC
Member
I agree with this. They all make the rules for these non-computing devices. I am in favor of them being able to call the shots on their respective App Stores as long as it provides me with a safe and secure experience. I don't want 3rd party stores on any "sealed" device where I can't see what's going on first hand behind the scenes which I feel is a differentiating factor between Computers and mobile devices.
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