Gamezone
Gold Member
But are we taking days, weeks, month?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Epic Games vs Apple in court face off INCLUDING Tim Sweeney , LIVE !!!
- Thread starter Krizalidx11
- Start date
- Drama
But are we taking days, weeks, month?
When has Epic said the reason they want to put their own store on IOS is because other companies don't pay 30%? Timmy Tencent also doesn't make everyone pay a flat royalty fee for UE, if your big enough to negotiate he will treat you different. He may even offer to make you the hero in the press releases.
Same ol G
Member
Can we ban this user?, hoping for the end of all consoles on a gaming forum is blasphemy what are you doing here?
phil_t98
#SonyToo
It’s what they agreed to when they wanted access to the user base, now that the game has grown so big they think they can go back on terms and agreements that they were happy with
Thirty7ven
Banned
Comes down to this really. They were happy to pay 30% until it was 30% of billions, then it became a problem.
doesn't apply to some real world items/services and not others, imo it's all very grey.
There was a whole Republican senator questioning the difference between a dating app and something like uber.
Dream-Knife
Banned
You are correct. I also dislike Epic.
BootsLoader
Banned
Do we have a summary of what happened yesterday? I want to have a quality read. Or at least a good quality audio file. Any good alternatives are welcome.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
If anybody wants to put a game on the epic store there’s a fee. Now maybe epic is playing good guy buy having lower fees but they are still making billions off it.
Fortnite is something nobody would of guessed it growing like it did.i get that they want more money from it while its still got a huge user base but they were happy when they wanted to grow it on apples store
Thirty7ven
Banned
Windows and IOS are not the same, this is a terrible comparison. IOS only runs on Apple products, it has aways been a walled garden. Windows as an OS for PC, holds a monopoly. There are more android users than there are IOS.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Yeah this is true but epic wanted acces to the walled garden, now this could be because they know apple users spend money on games and apps or they just wanted to grow their own game user base but they were happy to sign the terms and conditions. I think that they thought apple may cave in because apple is loosing revenue by Fortnite not being on the store but apple have just hit them back and said ok dont be on the store then
Menzies
Banned
Is it a 'terrible comparison'?
There is a pretty even split of users now between Windows, iOS and Android.
Android and iOS have morphed into general use devices, which can do pretty much everything Windows can.
Increasingly, there are households that don't have a WIndows device as their mobile phone/tablet can replace it for their use case/function.
I'd say at the very least, the lines are becoming blurred.
Thirty7ven
Banned
There aren't multiple vendors for IOS, there's only Apple. They have the smallest stake on the market in number of units, despite generating more revenue. I can't buy a Samsung IOS, and I can't build my own MAC like I can a PC.
All products, platforms, ecosystems, don't have to be the same. The market supports different approaches, as long as there isn't a monopoly. EPIC is basically trying to force Apple into turning IOS into Windows, but it's hard to see their legal argument.
Put aside your feelings and look at it from a market point of view. The only thing EPIC might accomplish with this lawsuit is force Apple to take a cut from Netflix. Just think of it, of course Microsoft would love to be able to put an executable on IOS that bypasses the rules of the service, and that way they can sell you MTX through Xcloud being played on a Iphone and not have to pay a cent to Apple. Build your own userbase.
Last edited:
waquzy
Member
You better believe it, when it comes to justice system, the USA is generations behind the rest of the modern world. It’s flawed in so many ways it’s not even funny…
Menzies
Banned
I understand that iOS is locked to Apple hardware, but is that the measure to define whether a centralized app store is allowed? That doesn't sound right to me.
If there's a 1 billion users on Windows and 1 billion users on iOS, and for 90% of businesses they can operate on iOS. What is the legal argument that defines that Windows must be open and iOS can be walled off?
What makes it OK for the EU to fine Windows having IE and Windows Media Player pre-installed as anti-competitive, but iOS having Safari, Apple Maps pre-installed is fine?
kuncol02
Banned
Imagine thinking that's not normal.
Imagine world where you are not allowed to use phone not created by your service provider, or world where you can fix your car only in authorized service and buy fuel on authorized gas station.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Because Windows always was an open OS. That's what they created, and so when they found themselves with a monopoly, they couldn't use it to their advantage.
Apple is now at the point where they even make their own chips. It was, is, and will be a walled garden. Windows can't ever become one, because it never was.
kuncol02
Banned
Who said they were fine. They simply weren't big enough to have any chance in court against Apple.
Forcing Apple to turn iOS into MacOS.
Netscape should have built it's own userbase?
Last edited:
kuncol02
Banned
It's even not only pre-installed. You can't have different web browser. Every other "web browser" on iOS is just reskinned Safari.
Thirty7ven
Banned
It's not the same.
theclaw135
Banned
Case closed. Epic wants Fortnite on the app store to offer in-game purchases without giving Apple a dime.
Menzies
Banned
Steam?
Thirty7ven
Banned
What about?
Are people missing the point that EPIC basically has to prove that they have no alternative in what is a fragmented market? This is flying over people's heads it seems. How will EPIC prove that Apple has a monopoly on the mobile space? The concept of monopoly will have to be redefined in court.
Menzies
Banned
'Build your own userbase'. Windows as a platform launched the success of many apps, all without Microsoft ever splitting their revenue.
I just don't understand...
In TODAY'S iOS and Android devices and capabilities, what makes Windows a monopoly? If iOS and Android level the playing ground so that 'computing devices' market share is now 'fragmented', then are you going to change what Windows can pre-install?
ape2man
Member
Well not entirely, js engine has to be from safari the rest can be what ever you want it to be. This way apple can diminish the web browsing experience and increase app purchases.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Because windows doesn't have competition in the PC space. They represent over 70% of the market, and that my friend... is a monopoly. Victims of their own success. If IOS represented over 70% of the mobile space, it would be the same.
"85% of smartphones globally run on Android." - https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/os
if Epic succeeds, this will affect consoles. Because they will have redefined the rules. Consoles don't just run games, they are multimedia machines.
Last edited:
ape2man
Member
Asking for a ban? is that not a bannable offence?
Menzies
Banned
I'm sure someone will correct my numbers soon.
So there's roughly 1.5 billion Windows devices in the wild, 1 billion iOS devices and 3 billion Android.
Would you agree that what you can do on iOS and Android has increased in the last decade to put them somewhat more evenly positioned as general computing devices?
Lord Thunderbear
Neo Member
Then we can say that iOs represents the 100% of the market in the iPhone space, thus a monopoly. Likewise we can say that windows represents only a part of general computing devices, thus not a monopoly.
Ultimately, it depends only on how you define said "space".
Besides, it's not like other competitors couldn't just build other OS and "make their own userbase"...but it was still deemed a monopoly despite that.
Thirty7ven
Banned
If you can prove that iOS is now replacing Windows in the workplace, then you have a strong case. Are iOS devices meant for Maya 3d artists? This is a big challenge to prove in court.
Absolutely ridiculous. Consoles have to allow for competing stores then, as every closed system is its own monopoly. That's not what a monopoly is.
Monopoly: "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate a sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of free-market capitalism in that, absent any restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large enough to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities, infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service. The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or near-total control of a market. "
Apple doesn't have a monopoly, they just make a lot of money. Epic believes they are entitled to more of it, they have to prove why. They will also have to prove how Apple's rules stiffle innovation, which will be pretty hard to do since... Fortnite was swimming in the billions, and they are fighting over MTX percentage. They won't even be able to prove Apple was using leverage to stifle competition, since they don't have a product that competes with Fortnite. Spotify is the one with the better legal argument, and even then... it's hard when spotify is available everywhere else and being competitive and lucrative.
Last edited:
DaGwaphics
Member
That's the rub though. There is no law that requires a PC OS to be open. While it would be legally difficult to "close" a previously "open" OS, there is nothing stopping a new OS from being released that is closed from the jump as a feature.
How successful something like that would be, I don't know. But if someone came along and managed to sell their "walled garden" as a feature not a bug, well good on them. The users made that choice knowingly. That's the free market for you.
Andodalf
Banned
Lord Thunderbear
Neo Member
As i said above, it just depends on how you define that space.
Apple totally dominates the sector and industry of iPhone products and services. Microsoft doesn't dominate the sector or industry of OS in general computing devices either.
The definition of something being a monopoly relies on an arbitrary definition of what the "sector and industry" are. Choose one large enough, and it will be difficult to find a monopoly. Choose one restricted enough, and it will be the opposite.
Last edited:
Thirty7ven
Banned
This is a non starter, and you're coming at this from a place of ignorance. That you don't understand what such definition of a monopoly would entail, is honestly mind boggling.
Same ol G
Member
It's just a joke, i thought the blasphemy part gave that away.
I don't think i have to explain that gaming is not a religion.
Lord Thunderbear
Neo Member
And yet it's exactly as valid as a definition as yours, with an arbitrary "desktop" market chosen purposefully to define windows as a monopoly, despite having many devices with different OS, even portable ones, that can do more or less the same things.
Obviously our arbitrary definitions are just for the sake of the discussion, as we aren't the ones legislating on the matter. But as i will say for the third time...it is all relative on how said space or sector is defined.
Because windows was always a open platform and Microsoft never was the R&D driver behind the hardware and sales. They let others spend that money. Epic is just looking for a free ride while getting protections for thier work lol. Apple you can't get protection for the billions you spend annually but we want our protections. They want to give software makers all the power and protections let hardware makers fend for themselves. The second a shady store shows up on Apple IOS giving away epic games you can guess who epic would drag to court
.Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Competing with the gatekeeper of the store which can make rules up on the spot to give themselves special treatment is one of the cases where consumers’ are under served and competition completely fails at letting the best app win. Being constantly told your app can have a certain UI but not another one, down to having categories or carousels, etc… or being requested to observe conditions Apple does not respect (ask yourself how they can ship Xcode on the Mac App Store for example…) also gets quite tiresome.
If you look at the same rules they threw at MS when making their Xcloud app for iOS, the origin of those rules comes curiously after they started to push the Apple Arcade subscription services (although regular users might have not been too aware of behind the scenes conversations as Few devs go public, Apple strongly suggests not to go to the press). As Apple makes more and more money on services rather than HW or selling apps, you can expect tighter and tighter rules against those that compete with them. The content and concept approval they do is much much much much more invasive and volatile than what MS, Nintendo, and Sony do for their stores If you are looking in looking into a “what about…” scenario.
The IAP mandate, which is not even consistently applied (see Amazon Prime having a special deal, look at all apps where you can purchase things without IAP’s too), is another mechanism where they give themselves a 15-30% advantage in profit margins: they could allow developers like Epic and many others to just use the very secure Apple Pay mechanism to pay for content inside the app… but nope… you must use IAP for subscriptions and consumables and only that and give Apple an extra cut (which is a cost that Apple Music does not have to incur).
Last edited:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is not that simple and the relationship between Apple and third party devs is symbiotic… Apple’s is treating all devs as beggars they are doing charity work for… ask Windows Phone what it means to have few third party apps or shitty ones in your store only (the OS and the HW in those phones was NOT bad at all, yet they still sunk…).Because windows was always a open platform and Microsoft never was the R&D driver behind the hardware and sales. They let others spend that money. Epic is just looking for a free ride while getting protections for thier work lol. Apple you can't get protection for the billions you spend annually but we want our protections. They want to give software makers all the power and protections let hardware makers fend for themselves. The second a shady store shows up on Apple IOS giving away epic games you can guess who epic would drag to court
LordCBH
Member
The other thing people are forgetting is. Being a monopoly isn’t illegal even if they had one. But that argument is like saying “Walmart has a monopoly on space in Walmart stores.” No shit. Of course they do. What’s illegal is abusing monopoly powers, which 90% of the time has to do with changing terms because “fuck you you’ll do it anyway”, or using your monopoly to bully your contracted OEMs to push competitors out of a certain space (example: internet explorer and the contracts Microsoft forced on all its OEM’s back in the day so third party browsers couldn’t be installed on windows images, effectively pushing things like Netscape out of the market because it’s either sign this contract, or your OEM business is gone.)
even IF epic can get the court to agree Apple has a monopoly, they still have an uphill battle. But you can’t take an extremely narrow space such as “the iOS on iPhone market” or “the space inside a Walmart store market” and automatically say monopoly when there’s very successful and viable competition on other platforms (android/Target)
ape2man
Member
sacrilege
Developers are always free to band together and tell Apple to piss off and treat us better to. Hold apps off the store like windows phone. With out revenue of a store your discouraging hardware in certain markets and creating new markets in the future. I don't want a 1500 consoles because Sony no longer makes money from the store. If epic wins here that is next for them and others. Valve would have nothing to lose taking Sony to court to get their store on the PlayStation.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I disagree… look at Spotify’s lawsuit and if there is a weakness in their armour and more devs are emboldened to show how Apple has been abusing their control of the App Store against devs and especially against devs making things Apple felt would be competing against their services… well, that will have tons of people joining up.
Thirty7ven
Banned
I agree that Apple shouldn't be allowed to undercut competing services for the end user on their device. I don't understand what you mean with in app purchases giving them an extra 15% to 30%, or how it's any different from PlayStation/Xbox, where 30% is taken from every purchase.
Last edited:
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Apple have a monopoly of app payments in the the iOS device market. Epic are arguing that the size of that market is so significant and that for various reasons users are so unlikely to switch platforms that no real choice exists. Remains to be seen if that reaches the legal definition of a monopoly I guess.
Epic are using the Kodak 1992 Antitrust case as an example of a company that although had competition in its primary market (copiers) they were committing antitrust violations in their control of the aftermarket (servicing, supplies etc.)
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_Kodak_Co._v._Image_Technical_Services,_Inc.
Last edited:
Phoenix RISING
Banned
I am absolutely tickled by how much money Epic is spending on this or that game to give away for free.
geordiemp
Member
Steam make piles of cash and dont supply any hardware - so think about that.
This affects everyone with a platform. and could eb the end of consoles (why subsidise hardware ?) - then everyone just sells games.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is an extra 15-30% compared to the subscriptions they sell and to their mandate not allowing devs to use alternative payment methods (which is BS as plenty of examples show).
The IAP cut is one of the many issues where Apple is holding their customers as a valuable resource and making the lives of apps more unpredictable and difficult (the case of a developer’s business model being ruined and looking very I’m predictable and risky due to how Apple makes and interpret vague rules up on the spot is not something you see on the console stores). That has a factor in things as well when you see them from the devs’ point of view and the impact of this on consumers.