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Epic Games vs Apple in court face off INCLUDING Tim Sweeney , LIVE !!!

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
I’m torn on this one. Apple vigilance has kept their App Store more or less safe compared to Android.

At the same time, they have this nasty habit of outright cloning business models/ideas from companies in their ecosystem and out competing then since they don’t have to pay that 30% fee to someone else.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I remember the lawsuit was about MS integrating it own software like IE, Windows Media, etc with little to no options to users download and install it own choose software.
Which was only a problem because of their dominant monopoly, and how they got there.

iOS is far from a monopoly due to Android..

And even if it was, they started as a closed system.. and unless they were proven to have shady behaviors to obtain a monopoly, good chance they still wouldn't have issues.
 

reksveks

Member
I’m torn on this one. Apple vigilance has kept their App Store more or less safe compared to Android.

At the same time, they have this nasty habit of outright cloning business models/ideas from companies in their ecosystem and out competing then since they don’t have to pay that 30% fee to someone else.
Announced their tags a day before the Congressional investigation into themselves and a couple of others.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Which was only a problem because of their dominant monopoly, and how they got there.

iOS is far from a monopoly due to Android..

And even if it was, they started as a closed system.. and unless they were proven to have shady behaviors to obtain a monopoly, good chance they still wouldn't have issues.
iOS or MacOS won't be a issue because it is a fully closed platform.
It is like PS5 or Xbox... or any other closed box system like the found in TVs.

MS had an OS in open platform.

Even if Apple had the same situation than MS related to OS it won't have any big lawsuit like MS because they are essentially a closed platform.
 
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Dr Bass

Member
I remember the lawsuit was about MS integrating it own software like IE, Windows Media, etc with little to no options to users download and install it own choose software.

That wasn't it at all. It was simply about IE being included in the operating system.

Apple and the iPhone go waaaay beyond what MS was busted for back in the late 90s. Anyone siding with Apple on this one is dead wrong. Smartphones are ubiquitous devices necessary for every day life. Two companies should not be able to control what software is allowed on them. Apple literally has the power to crush many businesses based on capricious and arbitrary actions. They simply should not have that power, and businesses should be able to publish software directly for the iPhone.
 

ethomaz

Banned
That wasn't it at all. It was simply about IE being included in the operating system.

Apple and the iPhone go waaaay beyond what MS was busted for back in the late 90s. Anyone siding with Apple on this one is dead wrong. Smartphones are ubiquitous devices necessary for every day life. Two companies should not be able to control what software is allowed on them. Apple literally has the power to crush many businesses based on capricious and arbitrary actions. They simply should not have that power, and businesses should be able to publish software directly for the iPhone.
Apple has a closed platform.
MS has a OS in a open platform.

Pun intended... Apples to Microsoft (Oranges) comparison.
 
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johntown

Banned
LOSE LOSE LOSE EGS SCUMBAGS!

I am no fan of Apple but in this case I hope Apple wins. I really don't think Epic stands a chance or has any real merit to their case anyway.

I hope it backfires and Apple and permaban them.
 

HoodWinked

Member
Massive net negative for consumers. Imagine having give out your credit card info for each 3rd party publisher with varrying levels of security.

Even worse it would shift the profit motivation further into microtransactions and dlc because those could bypass the platform holders cut.

Man imagine if Sony, Microsoft and Valve changed it so they take a smaller cut from games but half of the revenue for micro transactions and DLC. All this free 2 play scam trash would go away real fast.
 
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Spacefish

Member
Start your own game with your own set of rules if you don’t like how the current game is being played.
They tried to but the system holders wont let them. Epic doesn't like the rules so they want to be able to make their own competing app store but the platform holder wont let them. The question is then, is it fair for a company that has 60% of their native market to bar any competition from arising on their system. Yes if you consider phones to be luxury items, no if you consider them a necessity.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Apple has a closed platform.
MS has a OS in a open platform.

Pun intended... Apples to Microsoft (Oranges) comparison.

Yeah exactly. iOS is closed.

It shouldn't be legal at this point. So Microsoft should just be allowed to "close" Windows if it wants to?

This is a terrible argument.

Name the MOST important device to just about anyone in society these days. And you're arguing that two companies in the entire world should have control over every OTHER company on Earth in regards to what can exist on these devices? Absurd and dangerous.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Yeah exactly. iOS is closed.

It shouldn't be legal at this point. So Microsoft should just be allowed to "close" Windows if it wants to?

This is a terrible argument.

Name the MOST important device to just about anyone in society these days. And you're arguing that two companies in the entire world should have control over every OTHER company on Earth in regards to what can exist on these devices? Absurd and dangerous.
MS can created a closed platform if they wish.
Hey Xbox is a closed platform... they tried others not so successful too.

But any OS made for PC will be in a open platform.
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
That wasn't it at all. It was simply about IE being included in the operating system.

Apple and the iPhone go waaaay beyond what MS was busted for back in the late 90s. Anyone siding with Apple on this one is dead wrong. Smartphones are ubiquitous devices necessary for every day life. Two companies should not be able to control what software is allowed on them. Apple literally has the power to crush many businesses based on capricious and arbitrary actions. They simply should not have that power, and businesses should be able to publish software directly for the iPhone.

The US legal precedent really depends on how you got there.


Judging the conduct of an alleged monopolist requires an in-depth analysis of the market and the means used to achieve or maintain the monopoly. Obtaining a monopoly by superior products, innovation, or business acumen is legal; however, the same result achieved by exclusionary or predatory acts may raise antitrust concerns.

60% is massive in the US, but they do have strong competition from Android.

MS for instance got in trouble because of their behaviors that changed over time; essentially "fining" OEMs for instance if they sold Linux boxes, or installed other browsers on the systems they sold for instance. Also buying up competitors and then not doing anything with them.

There is nothing in US law that says you have to sell an open platform.. or that you can't become dominant in a sector. You raise eyebrows when you do, but there has to be more than that.
 
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dem

Member
The whole case seems silly to me even if it’s about payment processing.

It’s like suing Costco for not accepting American express.

I can’t comprehend any of epics arguments. None of them are sensible.
 
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Velius

Banned
If Apple wins they will resurrect Silicon Knights and let Dyak dance for their next iPhone commercial as it plays Deadhaus Sonata
 

BootsLoader

Banned
The whole case seems silly to me even if it’s about payment processing.

It’s like suing Costco for not accepting American express.
I don’t think so, 30% per transaction is a lot of money. I understand the “Epic side” too.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
*if Costco owned 60% of all American retail and google owned the remaining 40%
Tells you something about the quality of it when it is also the most expensive product by far.

Epic has no ground, they broke a contract, and are now making it a larger deal than it is to avoid the consequences.
 
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LordCBH

Member
Yeah a lot of it boiled down to evidence of their behavior, and the Gates interview as far as why they actually lost.

But things that are perfectly legal for someone not in dominant control of a market can be illegal for someone who is, particularly if it involves them adding restrictions that didn't exist.4

Ultimately my preference is on letting a closed platform thrive and letting a more open platform challenge it to try and pull its fans and customers away. But also ultimately, the legal system will have a pretty significant decision ahead of it either way.
 
Becoming dominant isn't illegal in US antitrust laws on it's own.
It isnt, but using that dominant position in an anticompetative way (usually by blocking competitors, which is what apple does on iOS) absolutely is illegal. The question is what is the market? Is it mobile app stores in which case Apple will wins as there is competition, but if the market is app stores on iOS then Epic will win as Apple essentially use their domination in the phone market to dominate the iOS app store market.
What are you talking about here?
Make the comparison more accurate. If you have an iPhone you can only use the app store. At least in the Costco comparison you can pop to the store next door also for one or two bits if you want. The walled garden of iOS is so high there's no way you can do that with phone OSs.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Ultimately my preference is on letting a closed platform thrive and letting a more open platform challenge it to try and pull its fans and customers away. But also ultimately, the legal system will have a pretty significant decision ahead of it either way.
Well judges exist to interpret laws not make them.

And Epic has scant evidence of anything but their own blatant violation of signed agreements and some graphs and charts.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Make the comparison more accurate. If you have an iPhone you can only use the app store. At least in the Costco comparison you can pop to the store next door also for one or two bits if you want. The walled garden of iOS is so high there's no way you can do that with phone OSs.

You can buy an Android device though... that isn't really some valid argument. (not that my analogy is that great either TBH lol)
 
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You can buy an Android device though... that isn't really some valid argument. (not that my analogy is that great either TBH lol)
Depends how far into the apple ecosystem you are doesn't it. That's why apple make nearly everything iOS only after all. It's only been a few weeks since the comments from apple about iMessage leaked for example.
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
You can buy an Android device though... that isn't really some valid argument. (not that my analogy is that great either TBH lol)

Google banned Epic as well. The only way to get Fortnite on an Android is to sideload the APK or get the EGS through the Samsung store.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Depends how far into the apple ecosystem you are doesn't it. That's why apple make nearly everything iOS only after all. It's only been a few weeks since the comments from apple about iMessage leaked for example.
I missed that.. those are the kinds of things that can help build a case, but I doubt it's enough. They were just internally debating whether an action would benefit them as a business or not.. that's pretty normal.

Depends on how a judge sees it.
 
? Well yeah it's completely in their right to make their own products exclusive to iOS
Can you not see how it’s all adds up together to be pretty anti consumer though?

Blocking competitors from offering certain services on your platform and then saying if someone doesn't like that then they can go elsewhere, but specifically making it as hard as possible for people who are in your ecosystem to leave.

For my feeling on this, it isnt one specific thing Apple does that makes them anti competitive. Its everything added together.
 

A.Romero

Member
Epic can make their own smartphone platform and sell whatever they want without sharing it's revenue. Hell, they can partner up with a manufacturer and use AOSP as an OS and sell without sharing.

But no, Epic wants Apple's userbase and also want to skip paying. Fuck that. Apple's devices are their own and they are not blocking anyone from producing theirs. Hell, competitors use each other's parts all the time. They want a cut for selling on a platform that Apple created and still maintains. They have 0 obligation of letting other people sell their stuff.

Both developers and users knew Apple was going for this service model before developing for iOS and/or purchasing an iOS device and they decided to enter that agreement. If users don't like the restrictions there are many options in the market (they are just not Apple).

Also, Apple doesn't block Spotify from their store even if it's a competition for their Google Music video. You can still download Youtube from Appstore and Apple will get 0 from Google's revenue. They are protecting a very specific section of their business. Epic can sell through web but they want to offer the convenience of doing it within the same device. Why is that? Because they know the users won't bother going anywhere else. They need that impulse selling aspect for their game to be the massive success it is right now.

What's next? Forcing Netflix to let Disney sell their shit on their platform and not get a cut?
 
Can you not see how it’s all adds up together to be pretty anti consumer though?

Blocking competitors from offering certain services on your platform and then saying if someone doesn't like that then they can go elsewhere, but specifically making it as hard as possible for people who are in your ecosystem to leave.

For my feeling on this, it isnt one specific thing Apple does that makes them anti competitive. Its everything added together.

Why is it difficult for you to leave?
 

A.Romero

Member
Say if you use iMessage, have some Airtags, have an Apple Watch, have some airpods etc etc. All of those things either straight up don't work with Android or work a hell of a lot worse with Android. You don't think that makes it difficult to leave the ecosystem?

You mean you didn't know Apple's ecosystem was closed before you made the decision of going in?

Personally, I've avoided their products because of that.
 
Fuck Apple, Epic and Tim are right.

Forget about your childish fanboyism and bear in mind this is about freedom.
I like my phones security and app store the way it is. Stop messing with it. If I wanted something else I wouldn't have bought into apples ecosystem.
 
Say if you use iMessage, have some Airtags, have an Apple Watch, have some airpods etc etc. All of those things either straight up don't work with Android or work a hell of a lot worse with Android. You don't think that makes it difficult to leave the ecosystem?

Well that's on you. You bought the products and you were fully aware what you were getting into

You have your own responsbilities as a consumer. You can't blame everything on these companies
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Say if you use iMessage, have some Airtags, have an Apple Watch, have some airpods etc etc. All of those things either straight up don't work with Android or work a hell of a lot worse with Android. You don't think that makes it difficult to leave the ecosystem?
Same as buying a Playstation, a Playstation VR, controllers, etc.

There has to be more than just making products that only work well together to form an antitrust case.
 
You mean you didn't know Apple's ecosystem was closed before you made the decision of going in?

Personally, I've avoided their products because of that.

It's more that it hampers your choice.
Say if Apple decide tomorrow that they are going to raise their subscription prices, or start charging a 50% app store fee instead of a 30% one (causing non Apple subscriptions via the store to become more expensive too). If you are into that ecosystem you basically have no comeback. If Apple were forced to allow third party app stores you'd have a decent option.
 
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