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Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken

M

mrmeh

Member
Heisenberg007 said:
PS5's engineer pretty much said the same thing on his Twitter. Once the old-gen is completely abandoned, mods devs will start writing the new code that would use the decompressor units instead of CPU for decompression.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Well I think it's more down to the asset workflow (rather than code) and the need to re-encode all the assets for PS5 why its not being used when they have to have a PS4 version as well. With console/graphics card shortages we may be waiting a fair while until 3rd party devs really concentrate on the latest tech.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
mrmeh said:
Yeah, Well I think it's more down to the asset workflow (rather than code) and the need to re-encode all the assets for PS5 why its not being used when they have to have a PS4 version as well. With console/graphics card shortages we may be waiting a fair while until 3rd party devs really concentrate on the latest tech.
Click to expand...

Geez.... :(
 
Heisenberg007

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Vognerful said:
Why would it be faster on Xbox though? Raw SSD speed is still faster on PS5.
Click to expand...
Because it's not using the PS5 SSD as PS5 games would. It is also completely bypassing PS5's I/O system and decompressor units -- which is the main focus of the PS5.

Simple example: PS4 does not have this I/O, and it doesn't have any dedicated HW decompressor unit. So it loads everything on the CPU. A PS4 game running via BC on PS5 has the same code that asks it to bypass everything and loads everything to the CPU. In BC mode, PS5 pretty much uses the PS4 Pro CPU settings. Xbox Series X uses the Xbox One X settings. That's why decompression and loading (via CPU, not SSD) is usually slower on the PS5 in PS4 BC games than it is on Xbox One X games on Xbox Series X.
 
Dozer831

Dozer831

Neo Member
Kilau said:
It's a shame the PS5 BC mode is so basic not to take advantage of the SSD speed. XSX gives great loading and FPS boost but often times at the same low res of the xbone version. I want it all!
Click to expand...
FPS boost isn't all that. They have to drop resolution and detail to hit 60fps, DF covered this. Only 3/5 games actually take advantage of it...
 
Vognerful

Vognerful

Member
Heisenberg007 said:
Because it's not using the PS5 SSD as PS5 games would. It is also completely bypassing PS5's I/O system and decompressor units -- which is the main focus of the PS5.

Simple example: PS4 does not have this I/O, and it doesn't have any dedicated HW decompressor unit. So it loads everything on the CPU. A PS4 game running via BC on PS5 has the same code that asks it to bypass everything and loads everything to the CPU. In BC mode, PS5 pretty much uses the PS4 Pro CPU settings. Xbox Series X uses the Xbox One X settings. That's why decompression and loading (via CPU, not SSD) is usually slower on the PS5 in PS4 BC games than it is on Xbox One X games on Xbox Series X.
Click to expand...
Sorry but your explanation skips the part why it is slower than the Xbox. We can see from many reviews that it is much faster than PS4 which means it is still using the SSD for some benefits.

My understanding is that PS4 pro and bñxbox one had the same CPU and games still used to load faster on PS4. So if the ps5 SSD has 2x speed of Xbox, running games on backward compatibility would carry the same benefits or maintain a clear advantage.
 
Faithless83

Faithless83

Banned
greencoder said:
Microsoft might have an ace up its sleeve to trump the PS5′ Kraken tech.

Of the many things Mark Cerny explained in detail during Sony’s recent deep dive into the PS5’s tech, one thing he mentioned was the console’s new texture decompression tech, called Kraken. Though it’s too specific to be anything but technical jargon to the layman, it should prove to be quite useful to developers, owing to how much more efficiently it operates than the current gen consoles.

Texture decompression isn’t something that Microsoft have talked about for the Xbox Series X too much yet, but according to industry professionals, their solution might be better even than Sony’s Kraken. Richard Geldreich, who formerly worked at Valve and Ensemble Studios, took to Twitter to say that Microoft’s texture decompression, BCPack, is their “dark horse” and might be a stronger option than Kraken.

He posed that question to James Stanard, who works on graphics optimization R&D and engine architecture on Microsoft. Though Stanard was reluctant to divulge many details about it, he went on to explain it briefly, it is specifically designed for texture decompression, before Geldreich added that being dedicated tech for this purpose will allow it to function more efficiently than Kraken, which is more of a general purpose system.

One thing that’s becoming clearer in recent days is that the PS5 and the Xbox Series both have significant advantages over the other in different areas– but both of them are incredible pieces of hardware that developers are quite excited to work on. Here’s hoping both of them reveal more details about their next-gen consoles in the near future.

gamingbolt.com

Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique Reportedly Better Than the PS5’s Kraken

gamingbolt.com gamingbolt.com
Click to expand...
Yet Control is twice the size on Xbox vs PS5.
So good but devs aren't using, right? :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
Heisenberg007

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Dozer831 said:
Can you explain the 400% more powerful decompressor for me? I can see on Oodles where they got the 298% over Zlib.
Click to expand...
Background: So, until last gen, all decompression was done by the CPU. This time, PS5 and Xbox Series X have dedicated hardware unit to decompress stuff. This frees up CPU burden and allows it to focus on other stuff, such as AI processing, NPC interaction, frame rates, etc.

Hardware Specs:
  • PS5's has decompressor units that are the equivalent of 9 Zen 2 CPU cores. In other words, without it, the Kraken stream would require 9 Zen 2 CPU cores fully dedicated to it. For reference, PS5's and XSX's entire CPU is 8 Zen 2 CPU cores.
  • In addition, PS5 also has a DMA controller that is the equivalent of up to 2 Zen 2 CPU cores, which basically directs data for further efficiency. Then a 12-lane SSD and Coherengy Engine are on top of that.
  • Anyway, Xbox Series X has a decompressor unit that is the equivalent of up to 3 Zen 2 CPU cores. So anything more than that will have to be decompressed by the CPU -- which will affect CPU performance. Perhaps this is one reason why PS5 was able to maintain better FPS in many 120 Hz games (just speculation).
Summary: So in summary, PS5 has the decompressor power of roughly 11 Zen 2 CPU cores. XSX has the decompression power of up to 3 Zen 2 CPU cores. That's nearly a 400% difference.

Practical Example: We have seen this in action with Control on PS5 and XSX. On PS5, Control was ~25 GB, while it was ~42 GB on XSX. Both versions used the same assets, but the devs were able to compress it more aggressively on the PS5 (so smaller file size). But despite the smaller file size, the loading times were the same on both consoles. In other words, PS5 were able to decompress a smaller file size (25GB) and still decompressed and loaded everything in the same time it took XSX to load a relatively uncompressed file (42GB).

Note that Control is still very much a cross-gen game (despite some changes to its code and how data is handled, as confirmed by the dev). I expect this to be a much, much bigger difference as we move forward in this generation, and devs learn more about the PS5 and also completely abandon old-gen.

Hope it helps!
 
Heisenberg007

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Vognerful said:
Sorry but your explanation skips the part why it is slower than the Xbox. We can see from many reviews that it is much faster than PS4 which means it is still using the SSD for some benefits.

My understanding is that PS4 pro and bñxbox one had the same CPU and games still used to load faster on PS4. So if the ps5 SSD has 2x speed of Xbox, running games on backward compatibility would carry the same benefits or maintain a clear advantage.
Click to expand...
No, the way both these consoles use Backward Compatibility is very different. Xbox, because of its virtualization methods, has a more advanced BC system in place. It is the same reason why PS4 BC games on PS5 can't go beyond 60 FPS, while games on XSX can go up to 120 FPS in BC mode. PS5 requires a native PS5 version for that.
 
F

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Vognerful said:
So if the ps5 SSD has 2x speed of Xbox, running games on backward compatibility would carry the same benefits or maintain a clear advantage.
Click to expand...
Only if the loading in the specific game is limited by the read-speed of the SSD/hard-drive. That really isn't the case for a lot of applications out there.
And the inter-play of when you run into what limitations and what can change between generations (it's clear Series consoles implement an entirely new I/O stack that carries benefits to BC as well) isn't all that simple. Some applications also do exceptionally dumb stuff with their I/O - where neither processing power nor I/O bandwidth are ever a limiting factor.
 
Last edited:
CS Lurker

CS Lurker

Member
Heisenberg007 said:
Background: So, until last gen, all decompression was done by the CPU. This time, PS5 and Xbox Series X have dedicated hardware unit to decompress stuff. This frees up CPU burden and allows it to focus on other stuff, such as AI processing, NPC interaction, frame rates, etc.

Hardware Specs:
  • PS5's has decompressor units that are the equivalent of 9 Zen 2 CPU cores. In other words, without it, the Kraken stream would require 9 Zen 2 CPU cores fully dedicated to it. For reference, PS5's and XSX's entire CPU is 8 Zen 2 CPU cores.
  • In addition, PS5 also has a DMA controller that is the equivalent of up to 2 Zen 2 CPU cores, which basically directs data for further efficiency. Then a 12-lane SSD and Coherengy Engine are on top of that.
  • Anyway, Xbox Series X has a decompressor unit that is the equivalent of up to 3 Zen 2 CPU cores. So anything more than that will have to be decompressed by the CPU -- which will affect CPU performance. Perhaps this is one reason why PS5 was able to maintain better FPS in many 120 Hz games (just speculation).
Summary: So in summary, PS5 has the decompressor power of roughly 11 Zen 2 CPU cores. XSX has the decompression power of up to 3 Zen 2 CPU cores. That's nearly a 400% difference.

Practical Example: We have seen this in action with Control on PS5 and XSX. On PS5, Control was ~25 GB, while it was ~42 GB on XSX. Both versions used the same assets, but the devs were able to compress it more aggressively on the PS5 (so smaller file size). But despite the smaller file size, the loading times were the same on both consoles. In other words, PS5 were able to decompress a smaller file size (25GB) and still decompressed and loaded everything in the same time it took XSX to load a relatively uncompressed file (42GB).

Note that Control is still very much a cross-gen game (despite some changes to its code and how data is handled, as confirmed by the dev). I expect this to be a much, much bigger difference as we move forward in this generation, and devs learn more about the PS5 and also completely abandon old-gen.

Hope it helps!
Click to expand...

On Series X, the whole process is equivalent to ~5 Zen 2 cores

"It's less latent and it saves a ton of CPU. With the best competitive solution, we found doing decompression software to match the SSD rate would have consumed three Zen 2 CPU cores. When you add in the IO CPU overhead, that's another two cores. So the resulting workload would have completely consumed five Zen 2 CPU cores when now it only takes a tenth of a CPU core."
Click to expand...
 
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F

FritzJ92

Member
Heisenberg007 said:
Background: So, until last gen, all decompression was done by the CPU. This time, PS5 and Xbox Series X have dedicated hardware unit to decompress stuff. This frees up CPU burden and allows it to focus on other stuff, such as AI processing, NPC interaction, frame rates, etc.

Hardware Specs:
  • PS5's has decompressor units that are the equivalent of 9 Zen 2 CPU cores. In other words, without it, the Kraken stream would require 9 Zen 2 CPU cores fully dedicated to it. For reference, PS5's and XSX's entire CPU is 8 Zen 2 CPU cores.
  • In addition, PS5 also has a DMA controller that is the equivalent of up to 2 Zen 2 CPU cores, which basically directs data for further efficiency. Then a 12-lane SSD and Coherengy Engine are on top of that.
  • Anyway, Xbox Series X has a decompressor unit that is the equivalent of up to 3 Zen 2 CPU cores. So anything more than that will have to be decompressed by the CPU -- which will affect CPU performance. Perhaps this is one reason why PS5 was able to maintain better FPS in many 120 Hz games (just speculation).
Summary: So in summary, PS5 has the decompressor power of roughly 11 Zen 2 CPU cores. XSX has the decompression power of up to 3 Zen 2 CPU cores. That's nearly a 400% difference.

Practical Example: We have seen this in action with Control on PS5 and XSX. On PS5, Control was ~25 GB, while it was ~42 GB on XSX. Both versions used the same assets, but the devs were able to compress it more aggressively on the PS5 (so smaller file size). But despite the smaller file size, the loading times were the same on both consoles. In other words, PS5 were able to decompress a smaller file size (25GB) and still decompressed and loaded everything in the same time it took XSX to load a relatively uncompressed file (42GB).

Note that Control is still very much a cross-gen game (despite some changes to its code and how data is handled, as confirmed by the dev). I expect this to be a much, much bigger difference as we move forward in this generation, and devs learn more about the PS5 and also completely abandon old-gen.

Hope it helps!
Click to expand...
No...
 
SenjutsuSage

SenjutsuSage

Banned
Heisenberg007 said:
It does. Kraken + Oodle + PS5's 400% more powerful decompressors = smaller game size + faster loading speed.
Click to expand...

Laugh Reaction GIF by GIPHY News


The PS5 does not have a 400% more powerful decompressor.

When Microsoft says they have a decompression unit that can deliver over 6GB/s, Microsoft, just like Cerny, are likely referring to input data.

This is what Mark Cerny says.

"we hustled and built a custom decompressor into the i/o unit, one capable of handling over 5GB of kraken format input data a second. After decompression that typically becomes 8 or 9 gigabtyes, but the unit itself is capable of outputting as much as 22GB/s if data if the data happened to compress particularly well."

Here's the video.



He's talking effective speed after decompression. Remember when mark cerny shows that 2GB of data being moved into main memory with the SSD operating at 5GB/s calculation? He likely used 5GB/s instead of the rated raw max 5.5GB/s of the PS5 SSD because the decompression unit only accepts just over 5GB of input data. Toss in that being kraken format input data, and the data in that 2GB batch after decompression could represent anywhere from 3.2GB to 3.6GB of data based on the typical compression ratio revealed by Cerny. If the data is just that amazingly well compressed, then the data in that 2GB portion on PS5 could actually turn out to be as high as 8.8GB of data or however far kraken gets pushed. 2GB of data turning out to be 8.8GB of data when decompressed is an example of Kraken with the decompression unit reaching that insane 22GB/s Cerny mentioned, and apparently it's gotten better since. So I admit it's impressive, but by no means is the decompression unit 400% more powerful than what's on Series X.

PS5 has a decompression unit perfectly matched to the performance of its SSD. Series X has a decompression unit whose raw capabilities outstrips the raw speed of the SSD by anywhere from 2.5x or 3x, coincidentally the exact same 2.5x-3x memory efficiency that you get from Sampler Feedback Streaming. Probably irrelevant, but I thought that was interesting.

The effective I/O capabilities of Series X with a fully utilized XVA, meaning with Sampler Feedback Streaming coded into the game, similar reaches well into effective 20GB/s territory and beyond, even without the decompression hardware. Dirt 5 dev says they can move 10GB in 2 seconds on Series X without decompression hardware, that's just raw. If he used SFS, he would accomplish a similar feat in effective performance in just 1.1 seconds, again without the decompression hardware. Sampler Feedback's 2.5x memory efficiency boost would take that 10GB of possible data down to 4GB of data. This feat alone is equivalent to 25GB/s in terms of effective I/O speed. Now toss in actually utilizing the decompression hardware, particularly BCPack for textures. Suddenly that effective 10GB of data, which SFS drops to just 4GB of data is decompressed into RAM in just 0.55 seconds. The overall effective I/O performance in that scenario is now, shockingly, much higher than 25GB/s... People keep sleeping on Series X's I/O capabilities just because the PS5 has a kraken format decompression unit and a faster SSD. It requires more work to implement the Series X's top I/O capabilities than it does on the PS5 side, but when games get it right, it will become a lot more clear how underestimated what Microsoft has done really is. Xbox Velocity Architecture, which is dismissed as a buzzword or a punchline for some today, will not be so in a few years time.

And, yes, I'm aware SFS only affects textures, but textures are the biggest users of game memory anyway, plus Xbox Series X's decompression unit can handle other types of data separate from textures, and has a supported compression format for those other pieces of data.
 
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T

Thief1987

Member
SenjutsuSage said:
Laugh Reaction GIF by GIPHY News


The PS5 does not have a 400% more powerful decompressor.

When Microsoft says they have a decompression unit that can deliver over 6GB/s, Microsoft, just like Cerny, are likely referring to input data.

This is what Mark Cerny says.

"we hustled and built a custom decompressor into the i/o unit, one capable of handling over 5GB of kraken format input data a second. After decompression that typically becomes 8 or 9 gigabtyes, but the unit itself is capable of outputting as much as 22GB/s if data if the data happened to compress particularly well."

Here's the video.



He's talking effective speed after decompression. Remember when mark cerny shows that 2GB of data being moved into main memory with the SSD operating at 5GB/s calculation? He likely used 5GB/s instead of the rated raw max 5.5GB/s of the PS5 SSD because the decompression unit only accepts just over 5GB of input data. Toss in that being kraken format input data, and the data in that 2GB batch after decompression could represent anywhere from 3.2GB to 3.6GB of data based on the typical compression ratio revealed by Cerny. If the data is just that amazingly well compressed, then the data in that 2GB portion on PS5 could actually turn out to be as high as 8.8GB of data or however far kraken gets pushed. 2GB of data turning out to be 8.8GB of data when decompressed is an example of Kraken with the decompression unit reaching that insane 22GB/s Cerny mentioned, and apparently it's gotten better since. So I admit it's impressive, but by no means is the decompression unit 400% more powerful than what's on Series X.

PS5 has a decompression unit perfectly matched to the performance of its SSD. Series X has a decompression unit whose raw capabilities outstrips the raw speed of the SSD by anywhere from 2.5x or 3x, coincidentally the exact same 2.5x-3x memory efficiency that you get from Sampler Feedback Streaming. Probably irrelevant, but I thought that was interesting.

The effective I/O capabilities of Series X with a fully utilized XVA, meaning with Sampler Feedback Streaming coded into the game, similar reaches well into effective 20GB/s territory and beyond, even without the decompression hardware. Dirt 5 dev says they can move 10GB in 2 seconds on Series X without decompression hardware, that's just raw. If he used SFS, he would accomplish a similar feat in effective performance in just 1.1 seconds, again without the decompression hardware. Sampler Feedback's 2.5x memory efficiency boost would take that 10GB of possible data down to 4GB of data. This feat alone is equivalent to 25GB/s in terms of effective I/O speed. Now toss in actually utilizing the decompression hardware, particularly BCPack for textures. Suddenly that effective 10GB of data, which SFS drops to just 4GB of data is decompressed into RAM in just 0.55 seconds. The overall effective I/O performance in that scenario is now, shockingly, much higher than 25GB/s... People keep sleeping on Series X's I/O capabilities just because the PS5 has a kraken format decompression unit and a faster SSD. It requires more work to implement the Series X's top I/O capabilities than it does on the PS5 side, but when games get it right, it will become a lot more clear how underestimated what Microsoft has done really is. Xbox Velocity Architecture, which is dismissed as a buzzword or a punchline for some today, will not be so in a few years time.

And, yes, I'm aware SFS only affects textures, but textures are the biggest users of game memory anyway, plus Xbox Series X's decompression unit can handle other types of data separate from textures, and has a supported compression format for those other pieces of data.
Click to expand...

Wait... Are you saying that we should wait? Again? Why is it always waiting with xbox? Waiting for games, waiting for tools, waiting for "power of the cloud" ...

Btw you wrote a good fairytale. This is exactly how pr and buzzwords affect weak minds.
 
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F

FritzJ92

Member
Thief1987 said:
Wait... You are saying that we should wait? Again? Why is it always waiting with xbox? Waiting for games, waiting for tools, waiting for "power of the cloud" ...

Btw you wrote a good fairytale. This is exactly how pr and buzzwords affect weak minds.
Click to expand...


It’s not as of there aren’t things to wait on for the PS5.
there is a lot of waiting this gen, pointing fingers is kind of silly and makes you look like a console warrior.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
Thief1987 said:
Wait... You are saying that we should wait? Again? Why is it always waiting with xbox? Waiting for games, waiting for tools, waiting for "power of the cloud" ...

Btw you wrote a good fairytale. This is exactly how pr and buzzwords affect weak minds.
Click to expand...

Some people make it sound like Microsoft wasn't even planning to release a console. I mean the claims that they were not ready with so many things seems a bit dumb to me. Just wait till they fix this just wait till they release date. And we had Demon Souls at launch on the other side plus Miles Morales.

Just odd that one manufacturer wasn't ready at all while the other isn't having issues.
 
T

Thief1987

Member
FritzJ92 said:
It’s not as of there aren’t things to wait on for the PS5.
there is a lot of waiting this gen, pointing fingers is kind of silly and makes you look like a console warrior.
Click to expand...
This is not about only this gen. This waiting game was also going on through the whole lastgen. You might think that is already enough, but nope, still waiting.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
reinking said:
It is no wonder Xbox Fanboys don't trust what Cerny says. They probably do not trust their own moms they have been lied to so much.
Click to expand...

Just looking at the XSXs hardware it seems pretty obvious that it wasn't rushed to release. When Microsoft did they they had the RROD issue with the 360. Something similar didn't happen with the Series consoles.

I agree that both will get better with time but it's not like either released a disaster of a system because they were not ready to.
 
SenjutsuSage

SenjutsuSage

Banned
FritzJ92 said:
It’s not as of there aren’t things to wait on for the PS5.
there is a lot of waiting this gen, pointing fingers is kind of silly and makes you look like a console warrior.
Click to expand...

I have a new policy about posting on certain topics here: just speak my piece as best I understand it with the best information from what I think are the relevant sources available in as respectful a way as I can. If someone gets their panties in a bunch and can't respond in a mature, level headed manner without trash talking or tossing insults my way, I just ignore and don't give it the time of day. Then keep saying my piece unbothered as I feel it makes sense to do. Changes the whole vibe of posting on this forum. I'm in too great a mood to fight over silly stuff lately.
 
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Riky

Riky

$MSFT
MasterCornholio said:
Some people make it sound like Microsoft wasn't even planning to release a console. I mean the claims that they were not ready with so many things seems a bit dumb to me. Just wait till they fix this just wait till they release date. And we had Demon Souls at launch on the other side plus Miles Morales.

Just odd that one manufacturer wasn't ready at all while the other isn't having issues.
Click to expand...

Well they have the issues of no expandable storage, no VRR support and totally inferior backwards compatibility. The games you mentioned are a PS3 game and a PS4 port, Microsoft upgraded Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4 substantially but they just didn't charge extra for them.
 
E

elliot5

Member
Riky said:
Well they have the issues of no expandable storage, no VRR support and totally inferior backwards compatibility. The games you mentioned are a PS3 game and a PS4 port, Microsoft upgraded Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4 substantially but they just didn't charge extra for them.
Click to expand...
DeS was a PS3 game in design, but let's not downplay Bluepoint's work. My closest friends worked on that and it is silly if not a little offensive to call it a PS3 game. It was still made from the ground up for PS5.
 
Riky

Riky

$MSFT
elliot5 said:
DeS was a PS3 game in design, but let's not downplay Bluepoint's work. My closest friends worked on that and it is silly if not a little offensive to call it a PS3 game. It was still made from the ground up for PS5.
Click to expand...

The structure of the game is still two generations old , not offensive just facts. I played it over a decade ago. Not saying it's not a good game but it's not a new game.
 
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