• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

DF - Assassin's Creed Valhalla: PS5 vs Xbox Series X/ Series S Next-Gen Comparison!

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yep. However, it's still clocked faster (with or without SMT).

I can only think of two things here:

Tooling:
If it does come down to immature Microsoft tooling, then they royally fucked up. (Given how much better their BC support is, I would like to think this isn't the case)

TDP:
The SOC is being thermal throttled.

XSX still employs the full virtualisation strategy as Xbox One (which pays off in terms of forward and backwards compatibility... their true goal) which eats some performance away and they kept a performance but more abstracted API later than Sony (which they do to ensure their games can more easily be ported to PC and viceversa).
Take those two aspects together and you generally need a bit higher clocks to achieve the same performance as Sony’s designs.
 

kuncol02

Banned
XSX still employs the full virtualisation strategy as Xbox One (which pays off in terms of forward and backwards compatibility... their true goal) which eats some performance
How much that costs we know since almost beginning of previous generation. Around 1% of console power. There is nothing in both designs which would explain power gap in some cases probably bigger than 30%.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
I don't want VRR being the end all be all fix either. Work on proper vsync, the tech is old and matured.

Reason, VRR lifts black gradient levels, so if you are sensitive to seeing a picture one way, then notice the shift in tones and gradients, it does stand out. Some displays worse than others, but even in the mighty CX, it lifts the blacks there as well.
vsync causes stuttering when the frame can't be output at the exact interval, it will then need to wait a full frame interval, causing a stutter. VRR is fine with black levels as long as the frametimes aren't too far off the ideal frametimes.
 
There are two possibilities here. Either:

- Phil Spencer had 3-4 years to prepare for next gen but inexplicably winded up with not a single new XGS title to launch with their new hardware. Somehow development tools are not ready either, despite MS specialising in this area and being the creators of DX12. If that is true he should be sacked as like David Jaffe said, this is total incompetence and taking the piss out of their own fans.

- Tflops, which has been marketed for the past year as the ultimate metric for performance, is in reality far from it and just one part of the real world picture, and a theoretical one to boot. Xbox fans have been taken for a ride with this marketing as in reality PS5 outperforms the XsX quite handedly.

Which is it? I think it's probably a mix of both. The unifying truth here is incompetence, either in leadership or marketing/design.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
Look I feel like Xbox will improve and close the gap. Whether that translates to being 20-50% performance delta in the future is another thing.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
How much that costs we know since almost beginning of previous generation. Around 1% of console power. There is nothing in both designs which would explain power gap in some cases probably bigger than 30%.

Not any single one thing, but I think is a bit more than 1%, was not the number around 3-4%?
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
giphy.gif
 

Sorc3r3r

Member
So MS was
There are loads of possible reasons, the issue is we don't know which is correct.

Firstly the GDK is not as close to the metal as the PS API, the hardware model is abstracted more. Furthermore if there are inefficiencies in the abstracted model?

Perhaps it is just immature GDK, but that doesn't fit so well as the case we are seeing has specific performance characteristics.

Although both consoles use the same CPU, the architecture is different in each case. Now the XSX being faster means that, all things being equal, it should be faster! But all this are not equal. It may be more efficient caching or offloading more tasks make the PS5 less CPU bound, it may only apply depending on SMT mode?

The mistake people have made from the start is confusing paper spec "models" for the actual machines, they are not the same. The test of every model is how it compares to the empirical data of reality.

XBox fans were far too sure of XSX superiority.

And to be clear, I expect XSX to regain the lead in performance in the future, will probably take some months though.
The map is not the territory
 

mejin

Member
There are two possibilities here. Either:

- Phil Spencer had 3-4 years to prepare for next gen but inexplicably winded up with not a single new XGS title to launch with their new hardware. Somehow development tools are not ready either, despite MS specialising in this area and being the creators of DX12. If that is true he should be sacked as like David Jaffe said, this is total incompetence and taking the piss out of their own fans.

- Tflops, which has been marketed for the past year as the ultimate metric for performance, is in reality far from it and just one part of the real world picture, and a theoretical one to boot. Xbox fans have been taken for a ride with this marketing as in reality PS5 outperforms the XsX quite handedly.

Which is it? I think it's probably a mix of both. The unifying truth here is incompetence, either in leadership or marketing/design.

I think you are not far from the truth and I agree with you.

I'd go a little ahead and say this is by no mean a surprise. All the signs people purposefully choosed to ignore when we talk about Spencer's actions all these years. The poor fuckers still believe till now.
 

Leyasu

Banned
I know that there is a lot of pent up rage after GitHub and the Xbox power memes thread.

But declaring anything based on some poor performing launch titles is misguided at best, stupid at worst. The specs are there. Going through all sorts of hoops to justify it doesn’t mean that they ain’t real.

Now I am not a secret sauce person, and I don’t believe for one second that the XsX has or needs it. I am more inclined to believe that it was late dev kits received and not enough time to optimize with the current tools. We will see.

The vengeance of the Xbox fanboys will be swift and merciless once things have been ironed out though.
 
When will people learn that the TF figure means nothing?


I know that there is a lot of pent up rage after GitHub and the Xbox power memes thread.

But declaring anything based on some poor performing launch titles is misguided at best, stupid at worst. The specs are there. Going through all sorts of hoops to justify it doesn’t mean that they ain’t real.

Now I am not a secret sauce person, and I don’t believe for one second that the XsX has or needs it. I am more inclined to believe that it was late dev kits received and not enough time to optimize with the current tools. We will see.

The vengeance of the Xbox fanboys will be swift and merciless once things have been ironed out though.

The inverse thread when the first series x game that out performs the ps5 version will be just as enjoyable to watch.
 
Conjecture ahead.

According to Cerny, AMD worked hard on the CU to retain hardware compatibility with older GCN based components in PS4. This is why hardware back compatibility is as good as it is on the PS5. It may also explain why things have been smooth sailing from Sony across to the new gen.

We have heard from numerous sources that the PS5 is the easier console to develop for. That it requires the least amount of work to port games across from previous gen. Given the hardware, evolution of sdk and the performance we are seeing it stands to reason that Sony have done their work well. They appear to have carried over efficiencies and are maximising performance of their system right from the off. This is fantastic considering launch titles aren’t taking advantage of many new gpu features.

Now for Microsoft. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the Series console sdk, middleware or toolset. It’s more likely to me that it simply requires more development effort in getting games ported across. As Microsoft runs games on Xbox within a virtual machine they have probably been able to more extensively rewrite the toolset for the new consoles. Not having to worry about back compatibility due to virtualisation is one of their biggest strengths. It’s clear however that performance isn’t translating fully or consistently as we may have expected with cross gen games.

For those attempting to write off the performance of the Series X. As is any new generation the proof of the matter is in next gen only games that are built to take full advantage of new hardware, features etc. I suspect the Series consoles will fly soon enough. With that being said I am entirely critical of MS and Phil Spencer particularly for attempting to launch a new console generation with absolutely nothing that takes full advantage of the new system. This is particularly damning to me considering the sparse lineup of 1st party exclusives over the past few years.

I have purchased both systems and have literally just received my PS5 whilst writing this post, haha.
 

Caio

Member
Do you know guys what's the point here ? Ok, PS5 Version is the superior one, and not by a small margin, DF was very clear about it. Software and development tools will get better on XSX, but the same apply to PS5, both Sony and Microsoft will deliver better tools to developers, this is not exclusive to only Microsoft or Sony. Both PS5 and XSX are quiet good piece of hardware, and both will improve with extra time, both will deliver great games. What I didn't like from Microsoft and Phil Spencer is this kind of "brain washing" with ""We have the most powerful Console"", ""Full RDNA2"", ""The only Full RDNA2 Next Gen Console", we have 12,155 teraflops, The Velocity Architecture, ""we have the POWAH"" ""WE HAVE THE POWAH"", ""all the multiplatform games will look and/or perform better on XSX"" from day one. And what about our dear very funny Phil Spencer who says in world vision that after having watched the PS5 Event in Jun, he was feeling even more confident about the XBox Series X superiority in terms of visual and performance. And what was shown on XSX in the July Event ? What ? Apart from ""World Premiere"" ""World Premiere"" ""World Premiere"" ""World Premiere"" ""World Premiere"" trailers trailers and Halo Infinite... I was the first in line waiting for that July Event, and believe me I went mad. Phil Spencer is dead for me.
Now, after the Launch of both PS5 and XSX, it's normal that people are becoming let's say a bit naughty, and having fun of Microsoft and XSX. After all the talk about XSX being so much more superior, we get the games, Demon's Souls, Spiderman, and even COD and Assassin Creed are better on PS5. What would you expect from Sony fans and all gamers in general ? This is hilarious to say the least. And honestly, leaving at home any fanboysm, I feel to congratulate Sony rather than Microsoft.
 
Last edited:

mejin

Member
The way the narrative has evolved is truly remarkable.

So the theory now is that the XSX is some exotic, Alien like piece of tech, bordering on PS3 lite.

Somehow none of this affects the Xbox Series S, which is performing exactly as predicted.

I think S is even more trash than expected. Out of the gate the "1440p machine" doesn't even sustain...it is 1080p or worse. Can't even imagine future and more ambitions games.

MS lied rudely about anything in their marketing.
 

kuncol02

Banned
So the theory now is that the XSX is some exotic, Alien like piece of tech
Who is saying that? Framework on which next gen games are supposed to run is still not feature complete (for example lack of final multi threading solution), tools also came really late. Optimization tools were released in preview form in june.
Not complete tool set and framework is fact.
 

Leyasu

Banned
The way the narrative has evolved is truly remarkable.

So the theory now is that the XSX is some exotic, Alien like piece of tech, bordering on PS3 lite.

Somehow none of this affects the Xbox Series S, which is performing exactly as predicted.
I cant say that I have seen anybody write that though.

There has been plenty of threads with dev quotes saying how seemless the transition to developing for the ps5 has been. A lot more than the XsX, and this was celebrated by the Sony contingent on here. Plus their dev environment has been touted as being more mature. There has also been talk of devs not receiving until late their dev kits and transitioning to a SDK

Now a few launch games are performing better and it’s because Microsoft lied, the paper specs are rubbish, split l3 cache, hypervisors or something else not yet imagined.

When you take a step back and look at things without bias, what scenario seems the most plausible?
 

kuncol02

Banned
I want to address that torch.

It takes away a good 10FPS from a 3090 on 4k/Ultra. The torch is an expensive render.. why? Because having more than 1 shadow casting light source wreaks havoc on ALL GPUs. It's a shame that that is the case but here we are where creating shadows continues to be very expensive. PS5 drivers are just really good at the dynamic res and probably drops resolution down enough to keep the FPS high.
Isn't PC and Series X versions virtually the same code? That's purpose of new GDK and GameCore. Wouldn't that mean that if there is bug in XBox version it would be also present in PC version? Do PS4 and XOne version have similar performance drops with torch?

I will add one more thing. Valhalla stutter also on world map. Is map render that costly? There is clearly something wrong with some scenarios that tank xbox performance. And that don't look like some bootleneck but some software bug.
 
Last edited:

Yoboman

Member
I cant say that I have seen anybody write that though.

There has been plenty of threads with dev quotes saying how seemless the transition to developing for the ps5 has been. A lot more than the XsX, and this was celebrated by the Sony contingent on here. Plus their dev environment has been touted as being more mature. There has also been talk of devs not receiving until late their dev kits and transitioning to a SDK

Now a few launch games are performing better and it’s because Microsoft lied, the paper specs are rubbish, split l3 cache, hypervisors or something else not yet imagined.

When you take a step back and look at things without bias, what scenario seems the most plausible?
Seems the most plausible that Cerny and many other devs claims that teraflops are not an absolute metric and there is far more to the story when it comes to performance was correct

And now we are seeing that play out in results

But I'm sure the magic GDK will change everything shortly
 

TJC

Member
MS must be paying Phil a massive bonus, he's managed to brainwash delusional Xbox fans for so long now that they have bought all the stock up for a console with no games and not even running games for third party better like advertised. Whatever you think of Xbox they know how to sell bullshit. Even IGN podcast beyond were talking about why they bought Xbox to play third party's. Delusional some of these people.

Trust in Mark Cerny, he don't have reasons to lie he's not a marketing man, that's Jim Ryan and co.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
I cant say that I have seen anybody write that though.

There has been plenty of threads with dev quotes saying how seemless the transition to developing for the ps5 has been. A lot more than the XsX, and this was celebrated by the Sony contingent on here. Plus their dev environment has been touted as being more mature. There has also been talk of devs not receiving until late their dev kits and transitioning to a SDK

Now a few launch games are performing better and it’s because Microsoft lied, the paper specs are rubbish, split l3 cache, hypervisors or something else not yet imagined.

When you take a step back and look at things without bias, what scenario seems the most plausible?

The scenario seems to quite simple to me. In some cases the PS5 will outperform the XSX, exactly as it says on paper. That Xbox fanboys didn’t want to accept this is their problem. Not even now do you want to accept reality.

Instead you would rather be on the side of Twitter loons, and indoctrinated fools like Riky. But go on ahead, put a smiley emoji on my post. World’s laughing at you lot homies.
 
Last edited:

Leyasu

Banned
Seems the most plausible that Cerny and many other devs claims that teraflops are not an absolute metric and there is far more to the story when it comes to performance was correct

And now we are seeing that play out in results

But I'm sure the magic GDK will change everything shortly
I don’t think that we will see anything change until the next battlefield next year.
 

gmoran

Member
XSX still employs the full virtualisation strategy as Xbox One (which pays off in terms of forward and backwards compatibility... their true goal) which eats some performance away and they kept a performance but more abstracted API later than Sony (which they do to ensure their games can more easily be ported to PC and viceversa).
Take those two aspects together and you generally need a bit higher clocks to achieve the same performance as Sony’s designs.

So they run their consoles as virtual machines? I did wonder, but hadn't read it anywhere.

If so that's probably the most straightforward explanation. There may be no issues in the GDK per se, it's just inherently less efficient - but NOT egregiously so. Probably would also explain MS's drive for performance as they need the overhead.
 

Handy Fake

Member
So they run their consoles as virtual machines? I did wonder, but hadn't read it anywhere.

If so that's probably the most straightforward explanation. There may be no issues in the GDK per se, it's just inherently less efficient - but NOT egregiously so. Probably would also explain MS's drive for performance as they need the overhead.
Aye, geordiemp geordiemp has been saying this for months.
I think a lot of the extra grunt Xbox has is being eaten away by such features, as well as quick resume etc.
And the Windows OS.
 
Last edited:

gmoran

Member
Aye, geordiemp geordiemp has been saying this for months.
I think a lot of the extra grunt Xbox has is being eaten away by such features, as well as quick resume etc.
And the Windows OS.

It actually is a genius idea, no wonder their back compat is so good, and modern virtualuzation is soooo good.

They won't lose much efficiency, but every loss contributes.
 

Leyasu

Banned
The scenario seems to quite simple to me. In some cases the PS5 will outperform the XSX, exactly as it says on paper. That Xbox fanboys didn’t want to accept this is their problem. Not even now do you want to accept reality.

Instead you would rather be on the side of Twitter loons, and indoctrinated fools like Riky. But go on ahead, put a smiley emoji on my post. World’s laughing at you lot homies.
I am on the side of nobody. Especially twitter loons. Please don't try to place in the same demented fanboy bracket as yourself.

I also never said anything about "total xbox domination" either. I was just saying that you sony fanboys running around proclaiming victory off of some last gen ports is premature to say the least. In the run up to launch there were a few threads were devs praised how easy the PS5 was to develop for. Given that and the talk of microsoft being late with the dev environment is now more likely why we are seeing what see. A lot more likely than some of the things being proposed by some in this thread.

What multiplat games are arriving in the next six months? These would be good to keep an eye on.
 

FritzJ92

Member
images


BTW Sony released the 7th core on PS4.


The advantage in CPU on Xbox One was just about a year until Sony unlocked the 7th core to developers too.

The point was that AC is a CPU intensive game and follows the higher performance, I wasn't posting a dick measuring contest... that's why some people dont' understand how they have more CPU speed theoretically available and drop frames around crowds.
 
I cant say that I have seen anybody write that though.

There has been plenty of threads with dev quotes saying how seemless the transition to developing for the ps5 has been. A lot more than the XsX, and this was celebrated by the Sony contingent on here. Plus their dev environment has been touted as being more mature. There has also been talk of devs not receiving until late their dev kits and transitioning to a SDK

Now a few launch games are performing better and it’s because Microsoft lied, the paper specs are rubbish, split l3 cache, hypervisors or something else not yet imagined.

When you take a step back and look at things without bias, what scenario seems the most plausible?
Xsx has cpu bottleneck due to split cache . Very simple

In gpu related tasks xsx will outperform ps5 by 10% or so though once they learn the tools but cpu bounds tasks will be different
 
Last edited:

onesvenus

Member
It is because VSync has some penalties in performance... so to use VSync at 60fps you need to be considerably over the 60fps.
That's not true at all.
Vsync at 60FPS waits for a frame to be finished between 16.6ms, it doesn't matter if it has finished in 16.5 ms or in 10 ms. The only thing vsync needs to be activated at 60fps is to consistently have higher than 60 FPS but that doesn't mean that uncapped framerate would be 70 or 80FPS.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
The PS5 isn't punching above its weight imo its where I would expect it. As a rough guide this a 3600 cpu with a 5700xt 1440p medium settings and never goes below 60fps. Yes Ps5 goes higher resolutions as it should do more power than a 5700xt. So god knows whats going on with the XSX when it hits 1440p it shouldn't really be dropping frames going off this PC setup.
 

Fitzchiv

Member
There are two possibilities here. Either:

- Phil Spencer had 3-4 years to prepare for next gen but inexplicably winded up with not a single new XGS title to launch with their new hardware. Somehow development tools are not ready either, despite MS specialising in this area and being the creators of DX12. If that is true he should be sacked as like David Jaffe said, this is total incompetence and taking the piss out of their own fans.

- Tflops, which has been marketed for the past year as the ultimate metric for performance, is in reality far from it and just one part of the real world picture, and a theoretical one to boot. Xbox fans have been taken for a ride with this marketing as in reality PS5 outperforms the XsX quite handedly.

Which is it? I think it's probably a mix of both. The unifying truth here is incompetence, either in leadership or marketing/design.

Neither. Don't be a snide.
 
The PS5 isn't punching above its weight imo its where I would expect it. As a rough guide this a 3600 cpu with a 5700xt 1440p medium settings and never goes below 60fps. Yes Ps5 goes higher resolutions as it should do more power than a 5700xt. So god knows whats going on with the XSX when it hits 1440p it shouldn't really be dropping frames going off this PC setup.

And setting for ps5 and xsx are high according to Alex. Not medium setting . So ps5 is outperforming 5700xt
 
Xsx has cpu bottleneck neck due to split cache . Very simple

In gpu related tasks xsx will outperform ps5 by 10% or so though once they learn the tools but cpu bounds tasks will be different
PS5 will likely find more horsepower when pushing its SSD and Audio RT but XsX CPU will be hammered by the overhead.
Performance crown will remain.
 
Can anyone explain how a cockwomble like Tom Warren got a job? He's thick as fuck. He thinks because of variable clocks the PS5 will have performance around 9TF😂😂😂. Even though it's been explained over and over.

Doesn't he write for wndows central? Being xbox fanboy is probably a part of job description :D
 

CobraXT

Banned
2 months ago some fans were asking about XSX games because we didnt see a single gameplay
running on XSX hardware ''100 % of what shawn was on PC until Dirt 5 demo'' now they deny that
Xbox dev kit is behind ! they have no problem contradict themselves if this serve their fake narrative
 
Last edited:

Shmunter

Member
That's not true at all.
Vsync at 60FPS waits for a frame to be finished between 16.6ms, it doesn't matter if it has finished in 16.5 ms or in 10 ms. The only thing vsync needs to be activated at 60fps is to consistently have higher than 60 FPS but that doesn't mean that uncapped framerate would be 70 or 80FPS.
Processing is never so precise to be hitting it so bang close onto target with consistency. For a steady 30 or 60 to be a flatline; there is a need for a wide ceiling on balance.
 

sircaw

Banned
2 months ago some fans were asking about XSX games because we didnt see a single gameplay
running on XSX hardware ''100 % of what shawn was on PC until Dirt 5 demo'' now they deny that
Xbox dev kit is behind ! they have no problem contradict themselves if this serve their fake narrative

and a year ago phil spencer said he took his console home with him.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom