• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dirt 5 devs: Next gen GPU differences don't impact development, but have efficiencies when optimising and tuning

sircaw

Banned
Not really and I'll tell you why.

Sony have made a machine with a less powerful GPU, slower CPU and slower peak memory bandwidth (substantially slower). These are the metrics that have always made software look nicer and run better, that hasn't changed.

On top of that they made a bigger console, that needs Smartshift and variable clocks to get to that less powerful metric. We will see which runs quieter and cooler, I'm very confident XSX will be quieter because Sony are talking about fan speeds before launch. Heat they may be equal because of the ridiculously large heatsink they have had to use and then shape the console as well with flaps to cool, making it even bigger.

Basically they are the ones who made a standard console, Microsoft have reinvented the console in a new form factor that made it more powerful in a quieter smaller form factor, at the same price. Sony got out engineered.

This doesn't mean I think PS5 is bad, it's probably great, when it has the sort of games I'm interested in I'll buy one like every other playstation console. A remake of a PS3 game and a cross gen Spiderman add on don't cut it for me personally but each to their own.

I've had every other Playstation console at launch but not this time, I'll wait for a slim version or a Resistance/Killzone game.

Riky Riky , Do you watch Dealer Gaming by chance?
 

Riky

$MSFT
bPXVdNp.png

Why would it sound logical to him? He looks like a firm believer in the 9TF FUD. :messenger_grinning:

It's 10tflops, I don't doubt that at all. They may have had certain profiles on Dev Kits before Smartshift and the boost, that doesn't matter anymore because the final unit is 10tflops.

I just want to know what actually happens when it reaches that power budget, only developers can tell us that.
 

onQ123

Member
Sony created the console of tomorrow and MS perfected the console of yesterday.

Whenever I say these things people think I'm trolling

 

sircaw

Banned
Not really and I'll tell you why.

Sony have made a machine with a less powerful GPU, slower CPU and slower peak memory bandwidth (substantially slower). These are the metrics that have always made software look nicer and run better, that hasn't changed.

On top of that they made a bigger console, that needs Smartshift and variable clocks to get to that less powerful metric. We will see which runs quieter and cooler, I'm very confident XSX will be quieter because Sony are talking about fan speeds before launch. Heat they may be equal because of the ridiculously large heatsink they have had to use and then shape the console as well with flaps to cool, making it even bigger.

Basically they are the ones who made a standard console, Microsoft have reinvented the console in a new form factor that made it more powerful in a quieter smaller form factor, at the same price. Sony got out engineered.

This doesn't mean I think PS5 is bad, it's probably great, when it has the sort of games I'm interested in I'll buy one like every other playstation console. A remake of a PS3 game and a cross gen Spiderman add on don't cut it for me personally but each to their own.

I've had every other Playstation console at launch but not this time, I'll wait for a slim version or a Resistance/Killzone game.


Lets try again, as you completely missed the mark.

Here is the question.

If Sony with a less powerful machine, that is weaker cpu, gpu and ram meet game parity with Micrsoffts 12 tflop beast in multiplat games, does that mean Sony's machine is a better-designed machine?
 
Last edited:

Md Ray

Member
He works for Amazon. Not getting paid from MS. He worked on hardware on with Xbox team and has knowledge. On What basis you rejecting what he saying? We need to trust what you saying coz your username is in gold?
He was a marketing guy. Didn't really work on the hardware. And it shows from his ignorant Twitter posts.
 
Last edited:

onQ123

Member
It's 10tflops, I don't doubt that at all. They may have had certain profiles on Dev Kits before Smartshift and the boost, that doesn't matter anymore because the final unit is 10tflops.

I just want to know what actually happens when it reaches that power budget, only developers can tell us that.


I think the times that PS5 will have to clock down is when 256-bit AVX is being used heavily & if 256-bit AVX is being used heavily I'm guessing the devs is getting a better result from doing so than they would without it.

in other words it's probably better to have a game that can make PS5 clock down & not the other way around.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Whenever I say these things people think I'm trolling


They don't think, they simply don't understand what you are saying. But it's easy to see for them now how games look so far on both sides. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 
Last edited:

Riky

$MSFT
Lets try again, as you completely missed the mark.

Here is the question.

If Sony with a less powerful machine, that is weaker cpu, gpu and ram meet game parity with Micrsoffts 12 tflop beast in multiplat games, does that mean Sony's machine is a better-designed machine?

Depends on your definition of parity, they will probably target the same frame rates and resolutions at the start of this gen, how about other stuff like shadows and ambient occlusion. If everything is identical then they did a better job, I don't think it will be though and as the gen goes on we'll see which machine has to make cutbacks first.
 

sircaw

Banned
Depends on your definition of parity, they will probably target the same frame rates and resolutions at the start of this gen, how about other stuff like shadows and ambient occlusion. If everything is identical then they did a better job, I don't think it will be though and as the gen goes on we'll see which machine has to make cutbacks first.

It's gonna be a fun generation for sure. :messenger_heart:
 
While true that on a stats sheet, the Xbox Series X has the better CPU, GPU and RAM, in real terms I don't think we'll see the difference soon, if ever.

Devs will aim for parity and, because both systems are so similar, it should be easy to accomplish.

Sony created the console of tomorrow and MS perfected the console of yesterday.

This is really just a fancy way of saying Sony half-assed BC and MS didn't.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Md Ray

Member
It's 10tflops, I don't doubt that at all. They may have had certain profiles on Dev Kits before Smartshift and the boost, that doesn't matter anymore because the final unit is 10tflops.

I just want to know what actually happens when it reaches that power budget, only developers can tell us that.

What does "exceeding 2tflops" mean then? It looks like you think the difference between PS5 and XSX would be more than 2 TF, therefore, implying that PS5 will be in the 9TF region after the downclock judging from this 👇 post of yours.

We also don't know how much PS5 will downclock when it reaches its power threshold, so could be even more inferior than the figures we have, maybe exceeding 2tflops. We'll see.
 
Last edited:
Depends on your definition of parity, they will probably target the same frame rates and resolutions at the start of this gen, how about other stuff like shadows and ambient occlusion. If everything is identical then they did a better job, I don't think it will be though and as the gen goes on we'll see which machine has to make cutbacks first.

I'm curious to see how important the I/O will be throughout the generation. In theory that's where Sony made their bets. Pretty crazy that the biggest difference between the two is the I/O system.
 
Stealth 9tf comments became popular after the waves of temp bans.
It's how they say 9TF in the circus now. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:

People still get banned for those comments.

tenor.gif


Just as a friendly reminder.

As for the variable clocks we don't have a benchmark that indicates the volatility of the clocks nor the amount of time it goes below 10.28 TFs.

I believe it was geordiemp geordiemp that explained to me that the clocks can drop within a fraction of the time it takes to render a frame. If so I doubt anyone playing the game will notice that. My PC clocks are variable and I don't notice the change at all. When I lock something at 60FPs if the settings are correct it will stay that way. I can imagine the same will apply to the PS5.
 
Last edited:

geordiemp

Member
Depends on your definition of parity, they will probably target the same frame rates and resolutions at the start of this gen, how about other stuff like shadows and ambient occlusion. If everything is identical then they did a better job, I don't think it will be though and as the gen goes on we'll see which machine has to make cutbacks first.

Back to reality, so the RDNA 5700 runs the DX12 Sekiro better than the XSX RDNA DX12.

XSX is 12 TF, 5700 is 9 TF, whats up ? Both are DX12, both are RDNA. I thought its just TF that matters ?

Or is XSX in emulation mode for the common DX12 api and both are RDNA ?

VmPWrvm.png


PQqecQe.png


Lets See how ps5 runs Sekiro :messenger_beaming: .
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Back to reality, so the RDNA 5700 runs the DX12 Sekiro better than the XSX RDNA DX12.

XSX is 12 TF, 5700 is 9 TF, whats up ? Both are DX12, both are RDNA. I thought its just TF that matters ?

Or is XSX in emulation mode for the common DX12 api and both are RDNA ?

VmPWrvm.png


PQqecQe.png


Lets See how ps5 runs Sekiro :messenger_beaming: .

Well, this looks like 4K@60fps compared to that screenshot you showed in 1800p:





Just dropped 12 hours ago.
 
Last edited:
Back to reality, so the RDNA 5700 runs the DX12 Sekiro better than the XSX RDNA DX12.

XSX is 12 TF, 5700 is 9 TF, whats up ? Both are DX12, both are RDNA. I thought its just TF that matters ?

Or is XSX in emulation mode for the common DX12 api and both are RDNA ?

VmPWrvm.png


PQqecQe.png


Lets See how ps5 runs Sekiro :messenger_beaming: .

Just a slight addition. The 5700 is running the game at a native 4K while the Series X is running the X1X version which I believe is a reconstructed resolution. So not exactly the same.

The PC build of Sekiro also offers a number of visual presets that do exceed the console builds, though it does seem like Xbox One X runs at 1800p with the game effectively running at the equivalent to PC's high settings, with textures on max.


Unless I'm making a mistake here and the game runs at a Native 4K on the XSX.
 
Last edited:

Aladin

Member
As we all know devs will push for parity between series x and ps5. It is good because series s was designed to push half the resolution of series x. Now that with parity, series s will comfortably cruise at 1440p. :messenger_beaming::messenger_peace:
 
As we all know devs will push for parity between series x and ps5. It is good because series s was designed to push half the resolution of series x. Now that with parity, series s will comfortably cruise at 1440p. :messenger_beaming::messenger_peace:

I don't think it works like that since the PS5 and the XSX can go below a Native 4K. Which would drag the XSS into the 1080P-900P territory.
 
Back to reality, so the RDNA 5700 runs the DX12 Sekiro better than the XSX RDNA DX12.

XSX is 12 TF, 5700 is 9 TF, whats up ? Both are DX12, both are RDNA. I thought its just TF that matters ?

Or is XSX in emulation mode for the common DX12 api and both are RDNA ?

VmPWrvm.png


PQqecQe.png


Lets See how ps5 runs Sekiro :messenger_beaming: .

Are you passing around a screenshot of a frame rate dip and peddling it as if it's the same as "average fps" in order to console war?

Pretty sure people have been banned for that.
 

geordiemp

Member
Just a slight addition. The 5700 is running the game at a native 4K while the Series X is running the X1X version which I believe is a reconstructed resolution. So not exactly the same.




Unless I'm making a mistake here and the game runs at a Native 4K on the XSX.

No its 1800p on XSX
 
No its 1800p on XSX

Oh and I know you'll ignore me, but here's Sekiro running at 60fps from multiple different sources on max settings XsX




Imagine thinking people here were on the level of your usual Twitter warriors who don't know the difference between average 60fps and occasional dropped frames.
 
Are you passing around a screenshot of a frame rate dip and peddling it as if it's the same as "average fps" in order to console war?

Pretty sure people have been banned for that.

I would attribute that to preproduction hardware.

Sekiro, meanwhile, consistently dipped between 55 - 57 fps on Series X, which is still much higher than its 36 - 40 fps standard on Xbox One X.


That's still extremely close to a locked 60FPs. With a patch I wouldn't be surprised if they increased it to a Native 4K.
 

Concern

Member
Back to reality, so the RDNA 5700 runs the DX12 Sekiro better than the XSX RDNA DX12.

XSX is 12 TF, 5700 is 9 TF, whats up ? Both are DX12, both are RDNA. I thought its just TF that matters ?

Or is XSX in emulation mode for the common DX12 api and both are RDNA ?

VmPWrvm.png


PQqecQe.png


Lets See how ps5 runs Sekiro :messenger_beaming: .


Posting this like an average when it was stated its mostly consistent 60fps besides on some demanding scenes.

Game is also the xbox one x version which is 1800p so its obviously not going to be 4k unless patched. Another disingenuous point you tried to make. 😁
 
Last edited:

longdi

Banned
Lets try again, as you completely missed the mark.

Here is the question.

If Sony with a less powerful machine, that is weaker cpu, gpu and ram meet game parity with Micrsoffts 12 tflop beast in multiplat games, does that mean Sony's machine is a better-designed machine?

Yes i will admit if so. But we will need to see the 2nd round of games on matured XDK before we give the final verdict.

Im interested in the next gen subplot of Mark Cerny vs Jason Ronald.

The venerable old Cerny, much revered by the fans, the man who speaks from his bathtub, who found success by selecting mid-range parts and blessing them with dev friendly tools.

Against an unknown upstart who burst into the scene with his odd beard. Tbf xbeard had a small victory with his custom One X design, which smashes the loud and over-sized/weaker PS4 Pro. Though skeptics harshly ruled it as being a year later.

Well, fine, we will have no hold bars in 3 weeks time. Head to head, priced to priced. :messenger_bicep:
 
Last edited:

Aladin

Member
More like dynamic 1080P and we go further into the generation with the most demanding games.
You must be quoting the Yakuza Dragon figures.First, half of 4K is 1440p.
Series X drops to 1080p to lock 60fps on the game. So it is dynamic 1440p. Series S being dynamic 1080p and falling to 900p is no big deal.
 
You must be quoting the Yakuza Dragon figures.First, half of 4K is 1440p.
Series X drops to 1080p to lock 60fps on the game. So it is dynamic 1440p. Series S being dynamic 1080p and falling to 900p is no big deal.

Actually Yakuza isn't a next gen game so I wasn't quoting it.
 

Md Ray

Member
Back to reality, so the RDNA 5700 runs the DX12 Sekiro better than the XSX RDNA DX12.

XSX is 12 TF, 5700 is 9 TF, whats up ? Both are DX12, both are RDNA. I thought its just TF that matters ?

Or is XSX in emulation mode for the common DX12 api and both are RDNA ?

VmPWrvm.png


PQqecQe.png


Lets See how ps5 runs Sekiro :messenger_beaming: .
Even Hitman 2 seems to run better on 5700 XT than XSX at X1X settings.
 

Aladin

Member
Yakuza D or Dirt 5, series s does what was promised of it(half of series x's resolution). There is not yet any proof that it cannot.
 
Exactly, it isn't the average frame rate at all, he's cherry picked the lowest he can find and is peddling that as some sort of proof, very deceitful.
yYCLR86.jpg


yYCLR86.jpg

I think it's just better to drop the video and let people decide for themselves. Still images can be deceiving.

 

Concern

Member
I think it's just better to drop the video and let people decide for themselves. Still images can be deceiving.




Still images are "deceiving" when he dropped the 60fps screens. But you didn't have an issue with the disingenuous 51fps still. Why am I not surprised?
 
Hitman 2 was 4k on Xbox vs 1440 on pro. So ps5 will most likely not run much better.

Well in order for the resolution to be higher the developers would need to increase it via a patch since it's limit is 1440P on the PS4 Pro. As for the framerate that really depends if the game works with boost mode.

On PS4 Pro, Hitman 2 runs at 1440p, just like the Pro patch for Hitman 2016, and the framerate can be uncapped if you want to aim for refreshes above 30fps. Xbox One X offers a native 4K image, which remains capped at 30fps, or an option to display at 1440p with an uncapped framerate.

The most that you can expect is the boost mode running Hitman 2 at 1440P at a much higher average framerate.

 
Last edited:

geordiemp

Member
Posting this like an average when it was stated its mostly consistent 60fps besides on some demanding scenes.

Game is also the xbox one x version which is 1800p so its obviously not going to be 4k unless patched. Another disingenuous point you tried to make. 😁

Yes its capped at 1800p, the point is the 1800p is easier go run than 2140p, your point is not logical or thought out.

Also the line is below 60 for the whole of the grab, its not a dip. :messenger_beaming:

Here is a bigger version to help you see. That green line is the FPS, its green. The line above it is the 60 FPS line. If you look closely, the green line is below the 60 FPS line.


B3qXgaY.png


If you want I can use arrows ?
 
Last edited:

Concern

Member
Well in order for the resolution to be higher the developers would need to increase it via a patch since it's limit is 1440P on the PS4 Pro. As for the framerate that really depends if the game works with boost mode.



The most that you can expect is the boost mode running Hitman 2 at 1440P at a much higher average framerate.



Like Sekiro which is 1800p on Xbox. It'd need patch to hit 4k. Only way it would not, is if it were dynamic resolution. Same with the frames, they must be unlocked. If not they require a patch.
 
Still images are "deceiving" when he dropped the 60fps screens. But you didn't have an issue with the disingenuous 51fps still. Why am I not surprised?

When I saw the other picture I went to watch the video because I wanted to see what the variation in the framerate is. And from the video depending on where you are it can tax the GPU and make the frames drop as low as 51FPs. However from Digital Foundrys analysis the framerate should be 60FPs most of the time but there will be areas where it will drop to the low 50s.

No idea why you didn't point this out.

Anyways for future reference if someone posts a screen grab of an analysis they should post the video along with it. That way the truth is there for all to see.
 
Last edited:

Concern

Member
When I saw the other picture I went to watch the video because I wanted to see what the variation in the framerate is. And from the video depending on where you are it can tax the GPU and make the frames drop as low as 51FPs. However from Digital Foundrys analysis the framerate should be 60FPs most of the time but there will be areas where it will drop to the low 50s.

No idea why you didn't point this out.


60 fps "most of the time". I said it drops on demanding scenes. Yet he chose the lowest drop to post like its an average.
 
Like Sekiro which is 1800p on Xbox. It'd need patch to hit 4k. Only way it would not, is if it were dynamic resolution. Same with the frames, they must be unlocked. If not they require a patch.

Well yes not all BC improvements are automatic on these platforms. I already said that if they want Native 4K on the XSX they would need to patch the game.
 

Vognerful

Member
Yes its capped at 1800p, the point is the 1800p is easier go run than 2140p, your point is not logical or thought out.

Also the line is below 60 for the whole of the grab, its not a dip. :messenger_beaming:

Here is a bigger version to help you see. That green line is the FPS, its green. The line above it is the 60 FPS line. If you look closely, the green line is below the 60 FPS line.


B3qXgaY.png


If you want I can use arrows ?
Yeah, that was an instant, not the average.

Since you like this video, you can go back to 11:20 of the same video and he will explain why.
 
Even Hitman 2 seems to run better on 5700 XT than XSX at X1X settings.

Receipts please.

Likely you're referring to the DF video showing Whittleton Creek, perhaps the most unoptimised and demanding zone in any current gen game, running between 52-60fps on 4k mode.

I expect you'll show evidence of this stage running better at 4k on 5700 XT to back up your claims.
 
Top Bottom