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Tech Analysis: Unreal Engine 5 on PS5 - Epic's Next-Gen Leap Examined In-Depth
- Thread starter sonomamashine
- Start date
hyperbertha
Member
How does one spin this into less ssd = same visuals? Lets find out soon in this thread
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Alex from DF just put up an Inside Unreal Engine 5 article
Inside Unreal Engine 5: how Epic delivers its generational leap
Epic's reveal of Unreal Engine 5 running in real-time on PlayStation 5 delivered one of the seismic news events of the …
www.eurogamer.net
It's a long article, some snippets
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ThatOneGrunt
Member
Spin? So you're implying that Epic made their brand new engine compatible with only specific a piece of hardware?
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EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Graphics will be exceptional next generation.
I think he is implying people will try to argue that, not him though.
I think the question everyone wants answered is this: How would this tech demo look and run on Xbox Series X. My bet is "exactly the same". Maybe, maybe X could push a higher res, or framerate ceiling. MS should really put out a tech demo of its own just to show the performance and get out in front of /diminish all this PS5 wins cause SSD BS.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
I think it is a question of when, not if, MS will put out the XsX UE5 demo. Do they wait until July? Do they do it ASAP?
Evilms
Banned
- Lumen is not ray tracing, it's using another form of tracing
- lumen also has specular reflections
- large objects are traced through voxels
- medium objects are signed distance fields
- small objects are screen space (like Gears 5 on XseX)
- you can see screen space artifacts in the demo
- uses temporal accumulation like RT, so there's a latency to lighting
- micro-polygon rendering is primarily used in offline rendering like film
- nanite uses a high resolution tiling normal map for fine details to help conserve vram through virtual texturing
- nanite scales the model complexity by how many pixels it takes up
- micro sized objects are shadowed with SS shadows and combined with a virtualized shadow map
- shadow map resolution is aligned with screen resolution
- shadows are filtered to create a penumbra
- unknown if nanite applies to animated objects like foliage or hair, or characters
- demo is dynamic res (mostly 1440p) at 30fps
- resolution scaling is more expensive with this technique
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Depends on a couple of factors of course. How big is was this demo and how big are those assets? If they are so big that you need a PS5 speed of SSD, then the XSX can't do this. But then again, if they are so big, will developers ever create something like that? That takes huge amounts of time for a complete game (not just a demo), and how big is this game going to be? 300GB or even more? Demo's are nice because you can put a lot of resources in only a small world, and use the whole system for it. But that doesn't always realistically translate to real cases, and then you can't really use that speed to your advantage.
INC
Member
Lighting is great, and is basically faux ray tracing
If it uses far less resources and looks like that, I couldnt give a fuck about ray tracing
As long as it speeds up dev time to worry about other stuff, like fixing bugs, I'm all for this lighting solution
On pc ray tracing basically means half your frame rate
If it uses far less resources and looks like that, I couldnt give a fuck about ray tracing
As long as it speeds up dev time to worry about other stuff, like fixing bugs, I'm all for this lighting solution
On pc ray tracing basically means half your frame rate
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alabtrosMyster
Banned
12.28 TF is orders of magnitude better than 10.28! and that SSD adds no TF at all, so whatever.
I still don't get how they pull all these models into memory, and where they store them... that demo should be above 1TB by itself :-/
Andodalf
Banned
I feel like that's more up to Epic. You'd have to imagine they want a baller 60fps version from a 2080TI or two out first.
They said it will be scale-able so a slower drive will get lower details
INC
Member
Bit like American muscle cars and euro/jap cars
American use a massive v8 power plant to get 500bhp
Euro/jap use a 3 litre and turbo chargers (ssd) to get 600bhp
Disclaimer: I have no idea if that works, I know fuck all about cars, or even consoles
Just sounded nice lol
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Dural
Member
Maybe they'll have a demo showing Gears5 using the tech? They already had the screen space GI demo with it, so I could see a lumen demo coming.
TearInto5th
Member
I hope not, using a last generation game and tacking on new techniques wouldn't make MS look any better right now. It needs to be built for the XSX and the XSX only
longdi
Banned
Yeah faux RT. The lighting still looks current gen.
Nvidia newest RT demo, the marble game, shows off hardware RT. Very realistic feels and sight!
INC
Member
No doubt, but this is good enough, and looks perfectly natural to my eyes
But current gen is still for th most part, bake lighting, this from what they're saying isnt, so its rel time, that will speed up dev time, which is what I care about more
Same with ray tracing, in the long run itll speed up dev time, but it's far to resource heavy, for even monster PCs. (At the moment, with more time and optimisation itll become less of an issue)
This is a great middle ground for next gen games, so cant really complain
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alabtrosMyster
Banned
If it pushes an higer resolution (let's say 1600p instead of 1440p) it won't push an higer frame rate, if it pushes an higher frame rate (60fps) it will have to cut the resolution, likely close to 1080p... unless it cuts on the details, then it would have to render less details, so obviously it would run better... and it's very likely that it would look so close that nobody would know better and they enjoy the higher resolution and/of frame rate more than they would notice the compromise, but that would not be because of the GPU.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
I bet we have the main argument over the next couple of years.
itsjustJEFF
Member
That demo was impressive, take a way what "platform" it was "showcased on" and just watch it for what it is. Take off whatever platform googles you have on. The tech they demo'd in that thing sounds so cool. I keep hearing the argument about "where's the ray tracing" Ray tracing never even crossed my mind. The lighting looked so good I don't care what tech is being used, I'm not a program WTF I care about if it has ray tracing or not?!? Oh it's 1440P... oh I'll be honest, I have a 4k Monitor in front of my face and I couldn't tell you the difference between 1440p, 4k, 2k up scaled, blah blah blah.
I don't care if this engine is made to reduce cost to GPU and CPU, I don't care, If it helps make games that look this good why the hell would I care? Oh it's not ray tracing but why do you care if it looks that good? Oh that's right, it's a bullet point you can use as part of your console war argument. 12 v 10, oh that's right it's another bullet point. If that's what games could potentially look like in the next gen, I'm in! My bank account will hate me, but I'm in.
I don't care if this engine is made to reduce cost to GPU and CPU, I don't care, If it helps make games that look this good why the hell would I care? Oh it's not ray tracing but why do you care if it looks that good? Oh that's right, it's a bullet point you can use as part of your console war argument. 12 v 10, oh that's right it's another bullet point. If that's what games could potentially look like in the next gen, I'm in! My bank account will hate me, but I'm in.
itsjustJEFF
Member
I don't think people think like you do. There is a cost to everything and there will be trade offs, like you mentioned. I'm not making the argument that the PS5's SSD is making up for the lower TF numbers, but if this tech is relying so much on streaming of assets, streaming of "billions" of triangles (
) wouldn't the PS5's much higher speed make a difference? I'm asking cause I don't know.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
What I suspect is that like the TF it will make a difference in edge cases... only maybe more because it's twice as fast as the competition in therms of bandwidth as opposed to 15-20% difference in GPU computing power.I don't think people think like you do. There is a cost to everything and there will be trade offs, like you mentioned. I'm not making the argument that the PS5's SSD is making up for the lower TF numbers, but if this tech is relying so much on streaming of assets, streaming of "billions" of triangles (
That being said, what we don't really know is how Sony's solution relates to Radeon SSG, where the GPU is directly connected to the SSD, as opposed to what seems to be a decent NVmE 3.0 drive that MS got for their machine... the difference being how close it is to the memory banks, and how often it can get information from it in a given time slice... and does it matter at all? sometimes or all the times?
I suspect that for existing games both solutions work pretty similarly, there is not much return to having twice the bandwidth to play the latest Assassin's Creed, at least I suspect, but games designed around that tech should show benefits.
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eot
Banned
Damn, Battlefront still looks pretty sick five years later.
Anyway, I didn't get his point about the scaling at the end. Clearly this technique would see a much bigger difference in performance when changing resolution, since polycounts and shadows are directly tied to the internal resolution. While that means it's harder to render at native 4K, you'd also gain FPS much quicker when dropping the resolution, so why was he speculating that 1080p/60 might be unrealistic?
Anyway, I didn't get his point about the scaling at the end. Clearly this technique would see a much bigger difference in performance when changing resolution, since polycounts and shadows are directly tied to the internal resolution. While that means it's harder to render at native 4K, you'd also gain FPS much quicker when dropping the resolution, so why was he speculating that 1080p/60 might be unrealistic?
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
INC
Member
Hendrick's what's so funny?
Does that mean lower detail on a slower ssd/hdd then, like a rival console or pc then? If they're not using the same speed ssd as the demo (ps5 ssd)
So indirectly the ssd is adding to the detail of the game world, and does have a big impact?
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Your dumb SSD agenda. No chance this would run worse on XSX. This demo not only performed poorly, but had nothing to do with SSD speeds.
Andodalf
Banned
Photogrammetry is a hell of a drug. The rocks shown in the demo look similar, but what’s awesome is the dynamic scaling of the assets to give even higher than the highest quality at extreme close range, while having perfectly appropriate quality at range, automaticity giving ideal performance and quality
Yes the speed of the HDD/SSD will have a big impact on the level of detail because fast streaming allows devs to use the pool of physical RAM for what is being rendered on the screen instead of the RAM being used to store stuff that you might need in the next 20 - 30 seconds.
This is the reason why tech demos of small scenes look so good because they can use all the RAM for what you see on the screen because it's a demo & you're not going outside of what is on the screen in the small scene. The fast SSDs allow them to use this trick but you can actually go beyond the small space because it can be streamed into RAM as you go.
Nah what's dumb is your blindness because my post had nothing to do with this running worse on Xbox SX
Oddspeak
Member
The biggest two takeaways from this demo that I hope devs notice:
1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation.
2. We don't need 4K for eye-popping fidelity. 1440p with good upscaling will be indistinguishable to a hell of a lot of people.
1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation.
2. We don't need 4K for eye-popping fidelity. 1440p with good upscaling will be indistinguishable to a hell of a lot of people.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
You're not fooling anyone.
Sethbacca
Member
I don't get why everyone is so concerned about the performance in that demo. That shit was a triangle torture test for the ps5. I can't imagine that most studios will be using assets containing even half as many polys as the cinema quality assets used in that video. Even at quarter to half the poly density, this shit would look spectacular with the lighting model and everything else going on. I think 1440p/60 is going to be easily achievable for a lot of games depending on art direction.
Shin
Banned
Fair comparison because it's demo vs. demo and from the same company.
thisgengaming.com
PS5 Tech Demo vs PS4 Tech Demos: a Look at How Far We’ve Come - ThisGenGaming
Epic Games made a huge announcement this morning by revealing their brand new Unreal Engine 5. Unreal Engine 5 is their next generation game engine and they showed it off today with a technical demo called “Lumen in the Land of Nanite” that was running on PlayStation 5. The demo was running...
thisgengaming.com
Fooling someone by telling someone that it's not made just for PS5 & that it's scale-able so that it can even work with slower HDD?
Are you that emotionally attached to console brands that you think everything someone say is to hurt your console brand?
look back at the post that I replied to
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I am not attached at all I just like to keep things honest. To your point though, perhaps I had you mixed up with another poster, so my mistake.
Portugeezer
Member
UE4 was an uninteractive demo and we got games which look better than it. And for some reason people doubt the new UE5 demo; we will get better looking games, biggest factor will probably be studio budgets.Fair comparison because it's demo vs. demo and from the same company.
PS5 Tech Demo vs PS4 Tech Demos: a Look at How Far We’ve Come - ThisGenGaming
Epic Games made a huge announcement this morning by revealing their brand new Unreal Engine 5. Unreal Engine 5 is their next generation game engine and they showed it off today with a technical demo called “Lumen in the Land of Nanite” that was running on PlayStation 5. The demo was running...
hyperbertha
Member
It won't run worse but it will surely have lower quality assets. Sweeney specifically stated the top tier ssd is the reason this demo was possible. But lets ignore that and starts the spinzz
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Sweeney was talking about the PS5 can do, not what the XsX can't do. We don't know if the XsX can't also do it. I am sure we will find out.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Thirty7ven
Banned
The demo performed poorly?
ethomaz
Banned
Some interesting quotes in the article.
"The vast majority of triangles are software rasterised using hyper-optimised compute shaders specifically designed for the advantages we can exploit," explains Brian Karis. "As a result, we've been able to leave hardware rasterisers in the dust at this specific task. Software rasterisation is a core component of Nanite that allows it to achieve what it does. We can't beat hardware rasterisers in all cases though so we'll use hardware when we've determined it's the faster path. On PlayStation 5 we use primitive shaders for that path which is considerably faster than using the old pipeline we had before with vertex shaders."
So they made use of Primitive Shaders (Mesh Shaders) to run faster on PS5.
Nanite uses software (CPU?) to generate de triangles/details instead to use the GPU rasterizers... it will only use them when needed.... that is why they said it won't affect GPU performance in the interview.
"Lumen uses ray tracing to solve indirect lighting, but not triangle ray tracing, "
Lumen is based in ray tracing but jut for indirect lighting... that is probably a way to avoid performance hits with use of ray-tracing.
"The vast majority of triangles are software rasterised using hyper-optimised compute shaders specifically designed for the advantages we can exploit," explains Brian Karis. "As a result, we've been able to leave hardware rasterisers in the dust at this specific task. Software rasterisation is a core component of Nanite that allows it to achieve what it does. We can't beat hardware rasterisers in all cases though so we'll use hardware when we've determined it's the faster path. On PlayStation 5 we use primitive shaders for that path which is considerably faster than using the old pipeline we had before with vertex shaders."
So they made use of Primitive Shaders (Mesh Shaders) to run faster on PS5.
Nanite uses software (CPU?) to generate de triangles/details instead to use the GPU rasterizers... it will only use them when needed.... that is why they said it won't affect GPU performance in the interview.
"Lumen uses ray tracing to solve indirect lighting, but not triangle ray tracing, "
Lumen is based in ray tracing but jut for indirect lighting... that is probably a way to avoid performance hits with use of ray-tracing.
Kenpachii
Member
Alex from DF just put up an Inside Unreal Engine 5 article
Inside Unreal Engine 5: how Epic delivers its generational leap
Epic's reveal of Unreal Engine 5 running in real-time on PlayStation 5 delivered one of the seismic news events of the …
It's a long article, some snippets
Wonder how much space all those 8k textures take up.
Sethbacca
Member
There are many posts in the other threads discussing this topic that are whining about 1440/30 with some frame rate drops. It's an unoptimized early build of an engine that's a year or two out from general usage in a demo that's showing us the absolute most hardcore case scenario for engine usage with respect to polys and cinema quality assets. The fact that it's performing as well as it is under these conditions tells me that games are likely going to be fucking amazing.