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[Bo_Hazem]

My only question with them then is why did they not factor XSX TF performance figures in a similar way? It has a lot of the same customizations going by what MS has mentioned, even if the SSD is about 2.5x slower (well, the flash memory controller, anyway). IIRC one of XSX's chips for SSD purposes is equivalent to 5 Zen 2 cores, and it has the dedicated audio processor as well, etc.

If they were factoring in PS5's CPU, custom chips etc. to arrive at those PS5 numbers that didn't end up being reflective of just the GPU, and if they knew specs on both systems, why was that not done with XSX numbers as well? Maybe their sources were the ones responsible? It would've been more helpful if they just gave them the GPU numbers only because at that point everyone was only focusing on the GPUs.

It's really beyond me, it's a puzzle but I don't like people bashing them in disrespectful way, and you know some apps/programs can be shit and give such mistaken numbers. How didn't that show up in XSX? Not sure how every system would react. Probably the Windows-based API in the XSX shows them exactly everything or more accurately, as I doubt you'll find an app that can perform 100% as intended in PS5 alienated API.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Bo_Hazem My take is both systems are going to be great.

I think on multiplat games they will be so close graphically most people wont be able to see any differences between the two systems.

I also think the SSD on the PS5 wont give any huge gains on multiplat games.

Whichever system people buy they will be thrilled with.

Just buy which system you enjoy the games the most.

For me its PS5 day one and probably XsX down the road as I have a pretty beastly PC.

You have a very good birdie though, send him/her our greetings

 

[megreotsugua]

Yes, Cerny emphasized how they worked to eliminate the overhead of disk reads, and DMA directly into GPU texture memory takes the CPU, a weak link, out of the equation. I feel this hasn't been emphasized enough in the articles I've seen, perhaps most don't realize how much of an improvement this will be. I've been a dev for 30 years, although not in gaming, I did work on some of the middleware in the Wii.

What are cache scrubbers?

Why don't AMD put that in their GPU?

I suppose it doesn't make sense in an open system like PC?

 

[Imtjnotu]

Indeed, You should remember that Cerny said that The Tempest 3D Audio is an equivalent of 9x ZEN2 cores! And Kraken is as powerful as all 8x Jaguar cores inside PS4. I don't think they can open the devkits to check them from inside as stated by @OsirisBlack , and the app/program used to estimate overall power won't take into account those unconventional customization. So this is my guess list for the inflated numbers:

9.2TF > 11.6TF
10.3 > 12.4TF
10.6-10.9 > 13-13.3TF

He was so angry because people are bashing him and all insiders in a very bad way. Let's give them a break.

HeisenbergFX4 what's your take?

You have it backwards.

The custom i/o controller has the equivalent of 9 ZEN 2 cores for decompression and read.

The tempest engine is 8 Jaguar cores worth of power

 

[Bo_Hazem]

You have it backwards.

The custom i/o controller has the equivalent of 9 ZEN 2 cores for decompression and read.

The tempest engine is 8 Jaguar cores worth of power

Nope, it's the Mighty Kraken, at the same time it's inside the i/o, so no one is wrong , but another 1-2 ZEN2 core inside there of that DMA controller, and listen carefully at 18:58 as well:

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

It's really beyond me, it's a puzzle but I don't like people bashing then in disrespectful way, and you know some apps/programs can be shit and give such mistaken numbers. How didn't that show up in XSX? Not sure how every system would react. Probably the Windows-based API in the XSX shows them exactly everything or more accurately, as I doubt you'll find an app that can perform 100% as intended in PS5 alienated API.

That's a possibility. Maybe the debugging in the devkits reported total system resources differently, that wouldn't be too surprising. And I doubt even devs could "crack" into the devkits to see more about their inner-workings than what MS and Sony would want to allow.

And yeah I don't necessarily agree with people attacking the insiders, either. Tommy did get XSX GPU specs right, and almost all insiders got the PS5 SSD right. Github got the GPU specs (in terms of size, active CUs (at some point, for XSX) and clocks (at some point; very likely both systems had devkits running at those clocks before final clocks were set).

So basically, everybody got at least something right in terms of both systems

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

That's a possibility. Maybe the debugging in the devkits reported total system resources differently, that wouldn't be too surprising. And I doubt even devs could "crack" into the devkits to see more about their inner-workings than what MS and Sony would want to allow.

And yeah I don't necessarily agree with people attacking the insiders, either. Tommy did get XSX GPU specs right, and almost all insiders got the PS5 SSD right. Github got the GPU specs (in terms of size, active CUs (at some point, for XSX) and clocks (at some point; very likely both systems had devkits running at those clocks before final clocks were set).

So basically, everybody got at least something right in terms of both systems

As I was once told a few months ago all the real info is out there its just not all in one place

 

[Bo_Hazem]

That's a possibility. Maybe the debugging in the devkits reported total system resources differently, that wouldn't be too surprising. And I doubt even devs could "crack" into the devkits to see more about their inner-workings than what MS and Sony would want to allow.

And yeah I don't necessarily agree with people attacking the insiders, either. Tommy did get XSX GPU specs right, and almost all insiders got the PS5 SSD right. Github got the GPU specs (in terms of size, active CUs (at some point, for XSX) and clocks (at some point; very likely both systems had devkits running at those clocks before final clocks were set).

So basically, everybody got at least something right in terms of both systems

Yes, that's the point I wanted to point out. It's a matter of mistake, not blatantly lying as some picture them doing.

Mod of War would you care to contact them? We probably got it "somehow" figured out.

 

[M-V2]

It's really beyond me, it's a puzzle but I don't like people bashing them in disrespectful way, and you know some apps/programs can be shit and give such mistaken numbers. How didn't that show up in XSX? Not sure how every system would react. Probably the Windows-based API in the XSX shows them exactly everything or more accurately, as I doubt you'll find an app that can perform 100% as intended in PS5 alienated API.

I don't agree with people trashing "insiders" but he (Osir) came to damage control etc... While many insiders came out & said we apologise for being wrong. But he didn't do that, which is wrong.

 

[Kusarigama]

There is more.


Replacing the internal SSD with a larger drive

The internal SSD can be replaced with a bigger hard drive with an off-the-shelf drive - meaning NVMe PC drives will work on your console.

PS5 SSD expansion upgrades explained: Compatible SSDs and other external storage options explored

How the PS5's external SSD storage upgrade works, including compatible SSDs and other external storage options, explained.

www.eurogamer.net

They are clearly saying there is no addiction slot... it is only one PCI-E 4.0 M.2 NVMe slot where the original SSD is... you can replace it.

It seems like eurogamer guide writer has written his own interpretation of what was said regarding storage expansion.

ethomaz

At 20:10 he says "expandability of our SSD is going to be quite important". This is quite different to "replacing the internal SSD with a larger capacity SSD"

he continues by saying "you may very well want to add storage to whatever we put in the console"

"ideally you would add to your SSD storage"

[on expanded SSD] "install in a bay in the PS5" ... "they connect through the custom IO unit just like our SSD does"


Granted, none of this actually states in absolutely black & white either way, but again, if what eurogamer is saying is true... I'm speechless.

It is quite clear that expandable ssd storage adds to the stock sdd storage rather than replace it. It is like how when Mr. Mark Cerny said PS5 supports ray tracing, people where saying "but he didn't say 'hardware based ray tracing' though".

 

[Sinthor]

with this logic xbsex is approx 120% of ps5in terms of raw power

Now you're catching on. Or in simple terms, 20% faster in your example.

 

[ethomaz]

It seems like eurogamer guide writer has written his own interpretation of what was said regarding storage expansion.


It is quite clear that expandable ssd storage adds to the stock sdd storage rather than replace it. It is like how when Mr. Mark Cerny said PS5 supports ray tracing, people where saying "but he didn't say 'hardware based ray tracing' though".

That is better if true.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

As I was once told a few months ago all the real info is out there its just not all in one place

Hey, I understood that reference!

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

I don't agree with people trashing "insiders" but he (Osir) came to damage control etc... While many insiders came out & said we apologise for being wrong. But he didn't do that, which is wrong.

I don't think he has anything to say sorry for. Unless you are accusing him to lie, he simply got the best infos he could and reported them.
Some insiders felt the urge to ask forgiveness, it's fine not to anyway.
He could have been a bit more clear after the reveal, that is, but it's another matter.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Nope, it's the Mighty Kraken, at the same time it's inside the i/o, so no one is wrong , but another 1-2 ZEN2 core inside there of that DMA controller, and listen carefully at 18:58 as well:

Your original post said tempest was 9 zen cores. Just fixing the mistake

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Hey, I understood that reference!

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yes, that's the point I wanted to point out. It's a matter of mistake, not blatantly lying as some picture them doing.

Mod of War would you care to contact them? We probably got it "somehow" figured out.

I forget who said it, but a day or two ago someone said maybe people got numbers mixed up and PS5 devkits were 13tf of Vega and assumed it would be more powerful than SeX at 12tf RDNA.

To me, that's a BS cop out reason.

If people were going on that, nobody would say a Vega based system is more powerful than SeX's system with similar tf counts.

There's a difference between someone saying the #13 is more than #12 vs. saying #13 is more powerful than #12.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

SSD helps the GPU:

Less assets loaded as you only load them on the fly = more efficiency. With that slower SSD at XSX you need to load more assets or fill your ram with it.

Overall, the more we get into next gen, the more will see that ultra fast SSD making its potential magic.

That "Coherency Engine" that helps offloading the GPU as fast as possible with the Cashe Scrubbers, as he said they can hurt the GPU (performance). Anyone with enough knowledge to break that down?




+

This is exactly why the devs are so excited about PS5, it's more than clear the smart API and SSD and other customization along the road will benefit all:

 

[Tripolygon]

That what you find in Eurogamer article based on Cerny talk.


How you can expand and upgrade PS5 hard drive storage
There are two PS5 expanded storage options for the PS5:

• Replacing the internal drive within the PS5 with a Sony-certified, off-the-shelf SSD
• Plugging in an external hard drive

Though Sony doesn't have to supply these options, there are caveats to what you can use or what you can use them for.

God no, that's not it.

PS5 has an internal SSD. There is also a separate slot to expand that internal SSD by adding an additional M.2 SSD. You are not replacing Sony's SSD.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I forget who said it, but a day or two ago someone said maybe people got numbers mixed up and PS5 devkits were 13tf of Vega and assumed it would be more powerful than SeX at 12tf RDNA.

To me, that's a BS cop out reason.

If people were going on that, nobody would say a Vega based system is more powerful than SeX's system with similar tf counts.

There's a difference between someone saying the #13 is more than #12 vs. saying #13 is more powerful than #12.

It's another matter, not talking about VEGA numbers at all. Discussed with thicc_girls_are_teh_best few posts above if you may take a look at it.

 

[DaGwaphics]

God no, that's not it.

PS5 has an internal SSD. There is also a separate slot to expand that internal SSD by adding an additional M.2 SSD. You are not replacing Sony's SSD.

I would hope so. The cost to end-users moving to 2TB would be very high if that wasn't the case.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I would hope so. The cost to end-users moving to 2TB would be very high if that wasn't the case.

Yup, it's like why you replace your own OEM smaller single turbo with a bigger one that's much more expensive if you can just place another turbo of the same size to make similar results

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I don't think he has anything to say sorry for. Unless you are accusing him to lie, he simply got the best infos he could and reported them.
Some insiders felt the urge to ask forgiveness, it's fine not to anyway.
He could have been a bit more clear after the reveal, that is, but it's another matter.

Yeah I don't think any of the insiders were lying, either. Some may've had bad sources for certain things, but that's not the same thing as trying to intentionally lie. Even Tommy Fisher wasn't lying.......at least in terms of XSX. Whether they thought they were legitimate on PS5 specs or were trolling, is another question. Their antics in particular were pretty humorous in hindsight tho.

It's like how a few (very few, but still) people were trying to insinuate Komachi, Rogame etc. were fudging the leaks and testing data because MS owns Github (partially? whole?). Or MS were spreading FUD intentionally. I'm sure Sony would've loved that because they could then sue them in court xD. But that's exactly why I thought those ideas were also pretty ridiculous.

 

[Rossco EZ]

not sure where to ask this but are xbox still doing the xbox access upgrade offer of buying a one X then after 12 months being able to upgrade to a series X?

 

[Tripolygon]

Have people noticed that the PS5 specs page has been updated to show that it supports the VRR spec of HDMI 2.1? Just like people have been saying? Yet folks want to argue because it wasn't specifically mentioned by Cerny.

Support of 4K 120Hz TVs, 8K TVs, VRR (specified by HDMI ver.2.1)

 

[DaGwaphics]

Yeah I don't think any of the insiders were lying, either. Some may've had bad sources for certain things, but that's not the same thing as trying to intentionally lie. Even Tommy Fisher wasn't lying.......at least in terms of XSX. Whether they thought they were legitimate on PS5 specs or were trolling, is another question. Their antics in particular were pretty humorous in hindsight tho.

It's like how a few (very few, but still) people were trying to insinuate Komachi, Rogame etc. were fudging the leaks and testing data because MS owns Github (partially? whole?). Or MS were spreading FUD intentionally. I'm sure Sony would've loved that because they could then sue them in court xD. But that's exactly why I thought those ideas were also pretty ridiculous.

Agreed, the manufacturers won't spread lies about the competition directly, that is of no value at the end of the day (the truth comes out, LOL). They will spread a little FUD about their own products in general, either to truly mislead or just to muddy points of comparison (that can be seen a bit in both the MS and Sony reveals IMO). It was clear that both knew what the other was doing and took steps to shape a narrative around that. There were references made in both presentations that seemed to exist as a way of taking a shot at the competition rather than providing valuable info.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

This is exactly why the


That "Coherency Engine" that helps offloading the GPU as fast as possible with the Cashe Scrubbers, as he said they can hurt the GPU (performance). Anyone with enough knowledge to break that down?




+

This is exactly why the devs are so excited with PS5, it's more than clear the smart API and SSD and customization along the road will benefit all:

It's really tiring to see all this tricks and stuff, looks like a damn anime

SeX: time to finish it, 12 TFs attack!
PS5: tks... Smartshift move!
SeX: Baka! Do you really think that is really enough?! I run max frequencies all the time!
PS5: so what? I have higher frequencies than you, with this I can counter your CUs level!
SeX: ah! Think you can beat me with this?! Watch the new trailer of DirectX 12 Ultimate, behold my perfect form!
PS5: you wont be able to use it.
SeX: impossiburu! What do you mean?!
PS5: I got cache scrubbers and Tempest, I mastered the path of efficiency while you were egoistically following your evil intents!
SeX: still... you can't beat me, I will use everything I got, faster CPU, higher peak RAM speed!
PS5: then... SSD TIMES 2
SeX: nani
PS5: and with the Kraken technique... SSD TIMES 4
SeX: NANI
PS5: MOVE OS IN STORAGE
SeX: WHAT THE FUCK
PS5: IT'S PLOT ARMOR

Like really, c'mon. Maybe we are searching too deep.

 

[Zero707]

Indeed, You should remember that Cerny said that The Tempest 3D Audio is an equivalent of 9x ZEN2 cores! And Kraken is as powerful as all 8x Jaguar cores inside PS4. I don't think they can open the devkits to check them from inside as stated by @OsirisBlack , and the app/program used to estimate overall power won't take into account those unconventional customization. So this is my guess list for the inflated numbers:

9.2TF > 11.6TF
10.3 > 12.4TF
10.6-10.9 > 13-13.3TF

He was so angry because people are bashing him and all insiders in a very bad way. Let's give them a break.

HeisenbergFX4 what's your take?

 

[Zero707]

It's really tiring to see all this tricks and stuff, looks like a damn anime

SeX: time to finish it, 12 TFs attack!
PS5: tks... Smartshift move!
SeX: Baka! Do you really think that is really enough?! I run max frequencies all the time!
PS5: so what? I have higher frequencies than you, with this I can counter your CUs level!
SeX: ah! Think you can beat me with this?! Watch the new trailer of DirectX 12 Ultimate, behold my perfect form!
PS5: you wont be able to use it.
SeX: impossiburu! What do you mean?!
PS5: I got cache scrubbers and Tempest, I mastered the path of efficiency while you were egoistically following your evil intents!
SeX: still... you can't beat me, I will use everything I got, faster CPU, higher peak RAM speed!
PS5: then... SSD TIMES 2
SeX: nani
PS5: and with the Kraken technique... SSD TIMES 4
SeX: NANI
PS5: MOVE OS IN STORAGE
SeX: WHAT THE FUCK
PS5: IT'S PLOT ARMOR

Like really, c'mon.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

This is not me, this is the sad reality, I'm sorry lol

 

[M-V2]

I don't think he has anything to say sorry for. Unless you are accusing him to lie, he simply got the best infos he could and reported them.
Some insiders felt the urge to ask forgiveness, it's fine not to anyway.
He could have been a bit more clear after the reveal, that is, but it's another matter.

Other insiders weren't lying as well like (HeisenbergFX4 & Odium) but they came out & apologized, nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying he is lying but they way he said things was wrong no more no less, I have nothing against anyone here.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Other insiders weren't lying as well like (HeisenbergFX4 & Odium) but they came out & apologized, nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying he is lying but they way he said things was wrong no more no less, I have nothing against anyone here.

Yes, it's what I said: others apologized, which is fine also, good for them.
I think he should just clarify why apparently he was so angry about PS5.

 

[Bankai]

It's really tiring to see all this tricks and stuff, looks like a damn anime

SeX: time to finish it, 12 TFs attack!
PS5: tks... Smartshift move!
SeX: Baka! Do you really think that is really enough?! I run max frequencies all the time!
PS5: so what? I have higher frequencies than you, with this I can counter your CUs level!
SeX: ah! Think you can beat me with this?! Watch the new trailer of DirectX 12 Ultimate, behold my perfect form!
PS5: you wont be able to use it.
SeX: impossiburu! What do you mean?!
PS5: I got cache scrubbers and Tempest, I mastered the path of efficiency while you were egoistically following your evil intents!
SeX: still... you can't beat me, I will use everything I got, faster CPU, higher peak RAM speed!
PS5: then... SSD TIMES 2
SeX: nani
PS5: and with the Kraken technique... SSD TIMES 4
SeX: NANI
PS5: MOVE OS IN STORAGE
SeX: WHAT THE FUCK
PS5: IT'S PLOT ARMOR

Like really, c'mon. Maybe we are searching too deep.

This is awesome, you should be an Anime writer! Maybe get going on a "The Guyver" remake or something?

 

[DrDamn]

Not entirely, I was responding to an point made that was suggesting variable clocks were better than fixed due to cooling constraints.

My understanding of the clocks were simply that if a dev wanted to prioritise GPU they can run at 10.3 with a little drop in CPU. If they want to prioritise CPU then they can run at 3.5 with a little drop in GPU. So it's effectively fixed in that it's predictable and the power profile is set on a per game basis. There isn't any complexity to it beyond that from a Dev perspective. I could be misinterpreting but that's what a fixed power profile gives you isn't it?

It's not as fast as fixed 12.x and 3.6, but it's better and more flexible than both being fixed below 10.3 and 3.5.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

Indeed, You should remember that Cerny said that The Tempest 3D Audio is an equivalent of 9x ZEN2 cores! And Kraken is as powerful as all 8x Jaguar cores inside PS4. I don't think they can open the devkits to check them from inside as stated by @OsirisBlack , and the app/program used to estimate overall power won't take into account those unconventional customization. So this is my guess list for the inflated numbers:

9.2TF > 11.6TF
10.3 > 12.4TF
10.6-10.9 > 13-13.3TF

He was so angry because people are bashing him and all insiders in a very bad way. Let's give them a break.

HeisenbergFX4 what's your take?

The Tempest 3D Audio engine he said has the power equivalent to all 8 cores of the Jaguar CPU (which is still pretty impressive for just audio!):




The Kraken Decompression Engine has the power equivalent of 9x Zen2 CPU cores:




You had the info backwards! Lol! But I think this mixed with all the other co-processors running in the background are going to take the load off of the CPU/GPU in the system which just frees it up more for games graphics, etc. I really want to know all the details of that Custom I/O Unit in the PS5, just from what Mark has said it sounds pretty impressive! It's sad that so many people are just hung up on the whole TF spec, but when you look at all the other components in the system it looks like it is shaping up to be a pretty amazing machine!

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

This is awesome, you should be an Anime writer! Maybe get going on a "The Guyver" remake or something?

I really, REALLY don't see the connection with Guyver but I guess anyone has wet fantasies.

 

[SonGoku]

My issue with your argument that fixed isn't better than variable is that this is not a game Dev issue, but a console design issue. MS has shown twice now that it now knows how to integrate an appropriate cooling solution for their console. So assuming that MS's cooling solution is adequate then fixed is better.

Yes but MS does that by going overboard/overkill with their cooling design which im not saying is a bad thing btw.
PS5 design has its merits, by having a fixed power budget they can pinpoint the exact cooling assembly needed to run cool and quiet without going overkill, this in turn saves budget that can go towards other components. Without this aproach with the same budget, PS5 GPU performance would be lower or the console would run loud and hot

Now if you ask me strictly in performance terms i'd say fixed 10.28TF is better than 10-10.28TF variable
But if the choice is (remember for the same budget) between a loud and hot fixed 10.28TF console vs a cool and quiet 10-10.28TF I'd say the latter is better

 

[mitchman]

Would you say it feels like Sony went for "expanded RAM" approach and MS went for the "faster storage" approach from what you can gather?

No, I don't see how MS can claim faster storage as a main selling point over the PS5. From what I can gather, and unless XSX also does DMA into GPU allocated memory of assets from the SSD, the PS5 will have a significant advantage in the disk subsystem. I think the difference in this particular area will be in the order of 3-4x faster on the PS5 as the CPU does not need to touch the data at all.
I'm still baffled a bit by the "fast and thin" GPU tactics on the PS5, but Sony likely decided to spend more on the disk subsystem, which arguably will be more noticable for the average gamer.

What are cache scrubbers?

Why don't AMD put that in their GPU?

I suppose it doesn't make sense in an open system like PC?

From what I have seen, the GPU cache scrubbers can invalidate the GPU cache for specific resources instead of invalidating the whole cache, which should be significantly faster.
This is needed as the SSD subsystem will replace GPU resources without the CPU being involved or being able to notify the GPU about this replaced and new resources. Presumably, the API will take care of notifying the game engine that the request for a list of resources has completed and can be used in the game.

I should probably re-watch the video to see if I can pick up more information on how this works

 

[mckmas8808]

The Tempest 3D Audio engine he said has the power equivalent to all 8 cores of the Jaguar CPU (which is still pretty impressive for just audio!):




The Kraken Decompression Engine has the power equivalent of 9x Zen2 CPU cores:




You had the info backwards! Lol! But I think this mixed with all the other co-processors running in the background are going to take the load off of the CPU/GPU in the system which just frees it up more for games graphics, etc. I really want to know all the details of that Custom I/O Unit in the PS5, just from what Mark has said it sounds pretty impressive! It's sad that so many people are just hung up on the whole TF spec, but when you look at all the other components in the system it looks like it is shaping up to be a pretty amazing machine!

That's insane! So there's a whole Zen2 CPU worth of power in the PS5 just to decompress data to take the load off of the CPU and GPU? Geez! And a PS4 CPU worth of power to crunch the sound? Talk about smart engineering. But it also sounds expensive too. With a cooling solution that has to cost more than the XSX, this ready does sound like a $500 console to me.

But that's cool with me, because it sounds like the CPU and GPU will be free to actually crunch videogame data, instead of all the boring stuff that it used to do in the past.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The Tempest 3D Audio engine he said has the power equivalent to all 8 cores of the Jaguar CPU (which is still pretty impressive for just audio!):




The Kraken Decompression Engine has the power equivalent of 9x Zen2 CPU cores:




You had the info backwards! Lol! But I think this mixed with all the other co-processors running in the background are going to take the load off of the CPU/GPU in the system which just frees it up more for games graphics, etc. I really want to know all the details of that Custom I/O Unit in the PS5, just from what Mark has said it sounds pretty impressive! It's sad that so many people are just hung up on the whole TF spec, but when you look at all the other components in the system it looks like it is shaping up to be a pretty amazing machine!

Indeed, we only need games or demos for a starter like what Xbox dead with Hellblade 2 and Project Mara. Start with demos, but keep them realistic and reflective of your true system, not like early Watch Dogs, The Witcher 3, The Division bullshit graphics.

 

[Neo Blaster]

That is how Cerny explained.
Eurogamer has an article about it too.
There is no SSD on motherboard... the SSD is on PCI-E 4.0 MVMe M.2 slot.

PS5 SSD expansion upgrades explained: Compatible SSDs and other external storage options explored

How the PS5's external SSD storage upgrade works, including compatible SSDs and other external storage options, explained.

www.eurogamer.net

There are two PS5 expanded storage options for the PS5:

• Replacing the internal drive within the PS5 with a Sony-certified, off-the-shelf SSD
• Plugging in an external hard drive

Cerny made it very clear there will be a bay with a slot for another SSD. Internal SSD is most probably soldered.

 

[MarkMe2525]

I'm really trying to be open minded here, but all I hear are the same arguments Xbox fans made in 2013 "esram will make up bandwidth limitations, the 4 dedicated move engines will get the data to where it needs to be faster, CPU upclock, etc..". In the end Sony's compute advantage was the most important factor when comparing game performance.

P.S. While I have consistently kept up with console development since 1999 with the development of Dreamcast and ps2, I don't know what I'm talking about at a technical level. This is just my skeptical take.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It absolutely does matter, Series X has PS5 beat on both power as well as performance. Your claim would've some merit if the different design goals of the two achieved same set of results but they did not.(Obviously, the caveat in here is of a lower budget). Wider and slower APU would generate less heat and consume less power. End result is an 'efficient' machine, one which is consuming the amount of power which is in-line with the performance it is churning out. Same applies for noise too. PS5 doesn't follow the same logic, for the performance it is giving out, it's generating far more heat and noise in addition to eating more power.



Power and clock curve doesn't scale linearly, power spikes at the higher end significantly once you start pushing the clocks. Take any discreet GPU and start over-clocking, see what it is consuming at its peak frequency (because that's what Sony have done here, they are on logic limit)

We still can't tell, and the power difference if only taken by GPU and CPU without giving credit to other customization then it's either the same fps performance with a 2160p vs 1800-2000p or same native 4K but slightly better stable fps at intense scenes as most developers shoot for ~70fps to keep 60fps locked while being the same overall.

Then here the hidden magic comes to play, that we've discussed thoroughly. Not to mention the insane potential of gigantically better audio quality that would make XSX sound like MONO vs 7.1 Channel surround in comparison. PS5 made the smart moves with its budgets, and if both rumored BOM's of PS5 being $450 and XSX $470-520 then it'll be a joke to sacrifice more money for mediocre sound quality and slow system overall.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

We still can't tell, and the power difference if only taken by GPU and CPU with out giving credit to other customization then it's either the same fps performance with a 2160p vs 1800-2000p or same native 4K but slightly better stable fps at intense scenes as most developers shoot for ~70fps to keep 60fps locked while being the same overall.

Then here the hidden magic comes to play, that we've discussed thoroughly. Not to mention the insane potential of gigantically better audio quality that would make XSX sound like MONO vs 7.1 Channel surround in comparison. PS5 made the smart moves with its budgets, and if both rumored BOM's of PS5 being $450 and XSX $470-520 then it'll be a joke to sacrifice more money for mediocre sound quality and slow system overall.

If Sony really wants to take a loss (being the more popular, they could) and price PS5 100 $ lowers, it's a big win.

 

[zeroeffect]

Anyone in here who's a dev who can answer my question? I was wondering since Microsoft put out all the games coming out will have to work on X1 does that cripple game design for third-party games? It seems like that would be extremely crippling in areas like AI development or even just stuff that could impact gameplay like environmental destruction. The reason being is the X1 has a horrible CPU/HDD. It's not the same thing scaling say a hypothetical Lockhart that had the same CPU/SSD just underclocked and weaker. Scaling down to X1 would cripple the XseX in game design for third-party would it not? I would also think this would also cripple PS5 third-party games as they're not going to give an advantage to a Sony console even if it's a possibility?

I don't know if scaling works differently now but I'm curious to know the answer to this. I would hope not.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Anyone in here who's a dev who can answer my question? I was wondering since Microsoft put out all the games coming out will have to work on X1 does that cripple game design for third-party games? It seems like that would be extremely crippling in areas like AI development or even just stuff that could impact gameplay like environmental destruction. The reason being is the X1 has a horrible CPU/HDD. It's not the same thing scaling say a hypothetical Lockhart that had the same CPU/SSD just underclocked and weaker. Scaling down to X1 would cripple the XseX in game design for third-party would it not? I would also think this would also cripple PS5 third-party games as they're not going to give an advantage to a Sony console even if it's a possibility?

I don't know if scaling works differently now but I'm curious to know the answer to this. I would hope not.

I'm no dev, but I really don't see how a storage 50-100 times slower wouldn't holding back next gen, both consoles, also those ridiculous CPUs.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm really trying to be open minded here, but all I hear are the same arguments Xbox fans made in 2013 "esram will make up bandwidth limitations, the 4 dedicated move engines will get the data to where it needs to be faster, CPU upclock, etc..". In the end Sony's compute advantage was the most important factor when comparing game performance.

P.S. While I have consistently kept up with console development since 1999 with the development of Dreamcast and ps2, I don't know what I'm talking about at a technical level. This is just my skeptical take.

Okay think about it like this....

- PS4 had 40% more power than the Xbox One. The result? Games were in 1080p on the PS4 and 900p on the Xbox One. That difference in resolution is also about 40%. Plus the PS4 had about 130% more memory bandwidth than the Xbox One. There was a difference is the same games this gen but it wasn't a huge gap that truly mattered.

- The Xbox One X is 45% more powerful than the PS4 Pro. The difference in most games is that some games are 4K on the One X, whereas they are 1650 to 1800p on the Pro. Checkerboard Rendering on the PS4 Pro gets the game up to 4K or "faux K" and most people can only tell a litter difference.

- The XSX is 18% more powerful than the PS5. And the RAM bandwidth is only 20% faster (remember the PS4's bandwidth was like 130% faster than the Xbox One). This time the PS5's SSD is about 130% faster and it has more hardware in the system to help eliminate more bottlenecks than the XSX. So yes, the average 3rd party game will technically have more resolution on the XSX, but due to the SSD speeds and "faster" GPU some things will run faster on the PS5. So, in the end, most 3rd party games will be within 10% of each other. And at 4K resolutions, DLSS for quality edges, and VRR to help with performance almost nobody will be able to tell the difference in that 10%. Digital Foundry will because they'll zoom into the same character with a 500% zoom to show you the difference. But if you played both games on the same TV, you'd probably wouldn't notice much of a difference.

 

[zeroeffect]

I'm no dev, but I really don't see how a storage 50-100 times slower wouldn't holding back next gen, both consoles, also those ridiculous CPUs.

That's my thought too and it worries me a lot that we're just going to see a bunch of cookie cutter third-party games because they're not going to give special design decisions for the 2 next-gen consoles. The most you'll see is a performance bump and prettier to look at. If Microsoft wanted to be real asses about it they can put stipulations down they can't give the PS5 big advantages. I highly doubt that would stop the devs from dropping their games on their consoles when $$$ is to be made. With the economy going down the shitter...seems even more likely you'll see less exclusivity in the near future.

Which is another thing. Neither console will have a price advantage. They'll be priced the same and it needs to be smart with the world economy tanked.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

That's my thought too and it worries me a lot that we're just going to see a bunch of cookie cutter third-party games because they're not going to give special design decisions for the 2 next-gen consoles. The most you'll see is a performance bump and prettier to look at. If Microsoft wanted to be real asses about it they can put stipulations down they can't give the PS5 big advantages. I highly doubt that would stop the devs from dropping their games on their consoles when $$$ is to be made. With the economy going down the shitter...seems even more likely you'll see less exclusivity in the near future.

Which is another thing. Neither console will have a price advantage. They'll be priced the same and it needs to be smart with the world economy tanked.

No one is going to accept third parties exclusivity deals if your console sells shit, like One. It's not like MS didn't want to be ass or didn't have the money, it's that the folks didn't want them lol While Sony could, so Sony did it instead. Let's see.
But the main thing is: the more crucial differences there are between two gen the more the old one is gonna hold back the new one.
SSDs and CPUs are fucking crucial differences this time around, they had to reduce the crowd in AC Unity because of the CPUs. And SSDs and HDDs are just like floppy disk and CDs, you don't scale up and down that shit, the ladder isn't long enough.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Okay think about it like this....

- PS4 had 40% more power than the Xbox One. The result? Games were in 1080p on the PS4 and 900p on the Xbox One. That difference in resolution is also about 40%. Plus the PS4 had about 130% more memory bandwidth than the Xbox One. There was a difference is the same games this gen but it wasn't a huge gap that truly mattered.

- The Xbox One X is 45% more powerful than the PS4 Pro. The difference in most games is that some games are 4K on the One X, whereas they are 1650 to 1800p on the Pro. Checkerboard Rendering on the PS4 Pro gets the game up to 4K or "faux K" and most people can only tell a litter difference.

- The XSX is 17% more powerful than the PS5. And the RAM bandwidth is only 20% faster (remember the PS4's bandwidth was like 130% faster than the Xbox One). This time the PS5's SSD is about 130% faster and it has more hardware in the system to help eliminate more bottlenecks than the XSX. So yes, the average 3rd party game will technically have more resolution on the XSX, but due to the SSD speeds and "faster" GPU some things will run faster on the PS5. So, in the end, most 3rd party games will be within 10% of each other. And at 4K resolutions, DLSS for quality edges, and VRR to help with performance almost nobody will be able to tell the difference in that 10%. Digital Foundry will because they'll zoom into the same character with a 500% zoom to show you the difference. But if you played both games on the same TV, you'd probably wouldn't notice much of a difference.

That's alot of assumptions made off of generlizations here. Me doing the same, assumes that the compute advantage will win out on rasterization and rt and noticeably so. All of the vrr, mesh shading, SSD benefits, etc.. will be on the XSX as well.

Again, while I absolutely could be proven wrong, it sounds like the same rationalizing that xbox fans made back in 2013. This causes me to be very skeptical