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Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)
Stiflers Mom
Banned
And quietly, she longs for such a man to come into her life, because she secretly detests those soyboys.
It's always the same story.
Kittehkraken
Member
Note: N4G has censored the story. It has been expunged from the site. WTF?
Still shows on google...
Clicking through goes to a login page...
Conveniently the page accusing him of abuse is still up and working.
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Doczu
Gold Member
And this right here is the real reason that started GG all those years back.Conveniently the page accusing him of abuse is still up and working.
But this time it's some next level covering.
FranXico
Member
Note: N4G has censored the story. It has been expunged from the site. WTF?
Still shows on google...
Clicking through goes to a login page...
davidjaffe
do you see what is really happening?
TraceTheTong
Member
Hey
davidjaffe
welcome back. And well done for actually coming to discuss. No slight against you obviolsy, but it's rarer and rarer these days that people discuss critisism instead of just hiding behind a wall and claiming trolls. I think this sort of back and forth is the only way passed the perminant damage Twitter has done to discussion on the internet as a whole. I'm the author of the table pinned in the OP. It's only fair I answer to your crit. So cheers again.I want to step through your reply paragraph by paragraph to address it.
There's nothing here for me to answer, it's pretty succinct. It's worth mentioning that there's substantial evidence of this behaviour from her all over the place, too.
I don't largely understand your point here. You seem to imply that the table, and perhaps by extension me, is here for the purpose of being on (or supporting) the "anti-zoe" team. By "taking in and supporting only the facts that support their narratives". In this post I wrote replying to you. I talk about why I made the table. I want to reiterate the most important point here: I wanted to lay out the 2 sources from both Zoe herself and the most thorough apposing source, which is the work of A AnnaSlatz , and compare. For the express purpose of getting rid of the "noise" around the issue and laying down a thorough and solid viewpoint. I think this is the only way to break mob mentality rule. If you find that the table seems to be thin on evidence of Alec's abuse, it's because the evidence of it is thin.
I think you have me here. I do conclude that Zoe is a bad relationship partner. My mistake is that it seems as though I conclude that soley from the DMs between Alec and his unnamed Colleague. I should of included more evidence of Zoe's previous behaviour in relationships, of which there is tonnes. That's my bad. But the conclusion is the same. As for the leaning of Post Millenial? I don't know how they lean, that doesn't really matter to me so long as the evidence is solid. I could even by Buzzfeed (lol) but as long as the evidence is there, fine. Any way, there's a reason I encourage people to edit and re-post the table. So you could edit the table with evidence that Zoe does, infact, act in the relationship in a good manner and that can be discussed. If you can find evidence of that, go for it.
One thing I do want to answer directly is that you claim that the post is " be all about ways to conclude Zoe was a bad person and a liar without also covering aspects/explorations of if she was telling the truth." The purpose of the table is the exact opposite of that. There is just very little to no evidence of Zoe's claims. Again, you can add to and edit the table with that.
Perhaps I could word that conclusion better as (re-reading it) I don't give enough weight on the possibility that Alec could of abused Zoe. There is some notes in there of Alec's mental instability, in multiple places, but you feel as though there should more notes and weight to that argument. Fair enough, add it to the table and link the evidence! You can add the weight, because that's what discussion is for.
I absolutely think that it's very possible that Alec actually did abuse Zoe in ways. I think that Zoe over-cooked her claims of the abuse. It was definitely a messy and difficult relationship on the whole.
Again, if you feel there's not enough weight on an argument you can add it.
--- REPLIES TO THE STREAM ---
Lastly, I don't really watch your streams unfortunately. BUT I have watched the VOD in which you cover this post, and I wanted to answer that also. So here we go.
- Here's one very important point you bring up, and I think it's a good one: You say that people on Gaf are saying that Zoe is responsible for Alec's death. There are people saying that here, for sure. My own opinion on this is that she is not responsible for it. Unfortunately for Alec, he chose to kill himself (in so far as someone as challenged as Alec can choose to do so). She is not totally innocent, obviously. And I think she know's that. But I wouldn't go as far to say that she is totally responsible. I dont think it's that simple. That's my stance on that.
- You then to go on to say you find it distasteful and that's fair enough, that's your opinion. (1:13:03)
- You then go on to say that the PM's findings were not proven, and they were just findings. A AnnaSlatz is the author of that, and she can direct you to the validity of the evidence. Her article is also the strongest evidence out of every article posted about this, that isn't already being scrubbed. It seems to be the best evidence available. (1:13:25) it, currently, does not get any more "proven out" than that to be honest.
- There's some personalized ranting after this. The chat sort of turns on you for a bit.
- The long and the short of the rant is that you feel the table is sort of a battle plan to take Zoe down. I don't know I can make this clearer to you Dave, as it's in multiple posts and disclaimers including above the actual post in your screenshot, that is not why I wrote it.
- (1:18:57 ish) you talk about how it's absurd that people think Zoe purposely released her claims as some attempt at manslaughter, I think that's absurd as well. That's cartoonishly villianous. I saw it as another reason to set out the claims plainly in a table.
- At this point it's worth mentioning that I know, as a streamer, you have to put on an entertaining persona for showmanship, so I'm taking that into account as I reply as well.
- At any rate, you say that zoe has a right to have her story told as a victim, and you're right. Fair enough. She told it. It seems like a good idea to analyze it, then, and compare it with the other information around the event. (1:19:40~ ish)
- There's more chatter between you and chat. It's mostly rambling against the chat, chat interaction and such. You bring up an important point about responsibility of posting tweets. I am passionate about this point also. I agree that we shouldn't have to go through a calculation in our heads about what to post, worrying that someone might kill themselves or soemthing like that. That's not how discussion works.
- At 1:22:42 you say something along the lines of why dont I divert my attention towards the kind of people who take Zoe's stuff out of context for the sake of narrative. Well, again, that's what the table is for. I provide the context in the table, and the sources, and compare them. Making it more difficult to take easy parts as a tweet. Again, it's in the disclaimer and it's on multiple posts I've made in this thread. Feel free to click my profile and read through them. If at any point you feel I've been unreasonable, defo bring it up.
- At 1:22:53 I have to EXPLICITLY CLEAR that I have not posted people's names or addresses of this event. It is strictly within the two people and the event. Ironcally, Zoe isn't even her real name.
- There's points after this you make but we've already made them and talked about them. More chat interaction and so on.
Any way, thanks for coming over
davidjaffe
, I would appreciate some attention on these answers as I think they clear a lot up as to my post and my motivations.thanks for the work A AnnaSlatz , I've been really unfair to journalists in this thread (and for the last decade tbh), it's obvious it's unwarrented at times and this is one of those times.
And thanks.
TraceTheTong
Member
Actually, no. There is something that I have to answer in your VOD
davidjaffe
You claim around 1:41:46 thatt he table's purpose is to prove Alec was the victim. That is definitely, definitely, definitely not the purpose of the table. Again, the purpose of it can be found literally above the table and in a multitude of posts I've made in this thread. There is no way I can make that any clearer to you, mate.
I felt that was very, very important to clear up. For the third or forth time.
davidjaffe
You claim around 1:41:46 thatt he table's purpose is to prove Alec was the victim. That is definitely, definitely, definitely not the purpose of the table. Again, the purpose of it can be found literally above the table and in a multitude of posts I've made in this thread. There is no way I can make that any clearer to you, mate.
I felt that was very, very important to clear up. For the third or forth time.
MetalFreak
Member
Also she now has a batman/superman spin-off, this world is fucked.
Zoe Quinn to Write DC Comics' Batman and Superman Spin-Off The Infected: Deathbringer
DC Comics announced that Zoe Quinn will team up with artist Tyler Kirkham to write a Batman and Superman spin-off titled The Infected: Deathbringer #1.boundingintocomics.com
What...the....FUCK??!
Portugeezer
Gold Member
Titled: "Deathbringer", it makes perfect sense.
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Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Well done
davidjaffe
for actually having a little something about you and posting again. I mean, this could go either way for you, so fair play.
I myself see it as a teacher, as that's what I was for a very long time in my life. Imagine if you will, a kid is in class, and this kid is shy, a bit of a loner, doesn't really engage much. Its clear he has a lot going on. Who knows what, or why. It doesn't actually matter all that much for the example, but lets just say he has learning support needs and finds school a challenge. We all had kids like that in our class, and I've taught many of them.
Ok, so you have a kid, lets call him Dave, (no connection), sits there, clearly has issues, maybe he's working through them with special help, therapy etc. Now over comes Frank, utter knob jockey of a lad, everybody knows him to be a bit of a head case and liar, a trouble maker. Well, Frank keeps on at Dave, constantly, to the point that Dave flips and throws a book square at Franks face.
Ok, stop right here.
As a teacher, who is at fault? Who do I blame, and what do I do?
I'll tell you what I do. I sort them BOTH out, because while Dave did the stupid thing and needs to be punished/talked to/helped, Frank is the one that pushed him, and without Frank, it wouldn't have happened at all. He was the fire to the gun powder. Sure, Dave may be a coiled up snake, but lets be honest, he wouldn't be if it wasn't for frank making his problems worse, worse enough to the point of him doing something silly. So in this case, BOTH have blame, BOTH need help.
Now, lets go back to the original point... You have a depressed bloke with mental health issues and clear anger issues, and you have a crazy eyes liar and master manipulator who resembles a beastly cow. Its the EXACT same thing. Would it be possible for the guy to make the mistake (in this case, suicide. Lets use the word, yeah) without her help? YES. Its possible. Anything could push, anything at all. Money worry, health problems, bad hair... Anything. But was SHE the catalyst that made him do it in this case? ABSOLUTELY YES. They both have their share of the blame, they both made the mistakes that resulted in this situation, and yes, SHE should be held accountable for him taking his life, as it was a direct reaction of her own actions that causes the final outcome.
Also, pigeons. I like pigeons, just wanted to put that in there as this was getting a bit too mature for me.
davidjaffe
for actually having a little something about you and posting again. I mean, this could go either way for you, so fair play.I myself see it as a teacher, as that's what I was for a very long time in my life. Imagine if you will, a kid is in class, and this kid is shy, a bit of a loner, doesn't really engage much. Its clear he has a lot going on. Who knows what, or why. It doesn't actually matter all that much for the example, but lets just say he has learning support needs and finds school a challenge. We all had kids like that in our class, and I've taught many of them.
Ok, so you have a kid, lets call him Dave, (no connection), sits there, clearly has issues, maybe he's working through them with special help, therapy etc. Now over comes Frank, utter knob jockey of a lad, everybody knows him to be a bit of a head case and liar, a trouble maker. Well, Frank keeps on at Dave, constantly, to the point that Dave flips and throws a book square at Franks face.
Ok, stop right here.
As a teacher, who is at fault? Who do I blame, and what do I do?
I'll tell you what I do. I sort them BOTH out, because while Dave did the stupid thing and needs to be punished/talked to/helped, Frank is the one that pushed him, and without Frank, it wouldn't have happened at all. He was the fire to the gun powder. Sure, Dave may be a coiled up snake, but lets be honest, he wouldn't be if it wasn't for frank making his problems worse, worse enough to the point of him doing something silly. So in this case, BOTH have blame, BOTH need help.
Now, lets go back to the original point... You have a depressed bloke with mental health issues and clear anger issues, and you have a crazy eyes liar and master manipulator who resembles a beastly cow. Its the EXACT same thing. Would it be possible for the guy to make the mistake (in this case, suicide. Lets use the word, yeah) without her help? YES. Its possible. Anything could push, anything at all. Money worry, health problems, bad hair... Anything. But was SHE the catalyst that made him do it in this case? ABSOLUTELY YES. They both have their share of the blame, they both made the mistakes that resulted in this situation, and yes, SHE should be held accountable for him taking his life, as it was a direct reaction of her own actions that causes the final outcome.
Also, pigeons. I like pigeons, just wanted to put that in there as this was getting a bit too mature for me.
Starfield
Member
Atleast the title is accurate reg ZQ
D-Dude
Member
Conveniently the page accusing him of abuse is still up and working.
They failed the article... And try to sweep it under the carpet. And of course acuse others.. N4G went downhill years ago.
the Guynecologist
Member
Why? DC is proud to be hiring a diverse range of voices for their comics. These new writers can bring a completely new perspective to the table and can add their own life experiences to their work. Why else would they hire Zoe Quinn to write a comic called The Infected Deathbringer?
Kittehkraken
Member
They failed the article... And try to sweep it under the carpet. And of course acuse others.. N4G went downhill years ago.
"This has nothing to do with gaming."
So accusing Alec of abuse is fine for N4G, but the second the narrative shifts towards the accuser its no longer acceptable.
The guy kills himself and now they just wanna flush it all away because Zoe might not be telling the truth. Disgusting behavior.
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cormack12
Gold Member
Orrrrrr.....
On LinkedIn, co-Founder and President Matthew Azrieli describes the Post Millennial as a "a moderate centre-right news platform."
Media rating site Media Bias/Fact Check rates The Post Millennial as Right, and gives the publication a High rating for factual reporting.
"For the most part news articles are sourced properly and factually based, though there is a strong right leaning bias in story selection that denigrates the left and in particular PM Justin Trudeau," Media Bias/Fact Check writes in its review. "The opinion/editorial pages provide little balance and primarily support Conservative and Libertarian positions."
They are the important things. It doesn't matter if a publication chooses which stories to cover or for whatever reason as long as they are factual and sourced properly. I bet these people think publications like the Guardian are unbiased. The whole premise falls apart when you ask them to name a publication which they feel covers any right wing politics or policy fairly. Another politically immature moderator making aggrandaising statements in the hunt for digital back pats. Alt-right - basically the new term to hide behind instead of actual critical thinking. Chanted like 'Avada Kedavra' to the public to kill any contrary viewpoints.
It's hilarious watching this unfold.
I mean, it's not like another hitpiece which N4G also left up is it attacking a developer?
Triternion's official statement in regards to Mordhau toxicity on the topic of gender and race
From Triternion Development Team: 'In light of recent publicity on the state of MORDHAU’s community, we would like to discuss our stance on toxicity and the topic of gender and race in our game.'
After Transphobic Comments Spark Controversy, Ion Fury Developers Apologize For Employee Remarks
'Moving forward, Voidpoint will institute a zero-tolerance policy for this type of language and all employees and contractors will undergo mandatory sensitivity training. As part of our efforts to contribute to the work that must be done to further support these communities, we are donating...
davidjaffe
- these people are like eigthth graders in their awareness and ability to see themselves objectively. Also, when you constrain the ability to discuss these topics rationally in the public arena, people will gravitate to the places than allow that freedom. These places are then called alt-right, incel dens etc. when actually as you can see most people in here are quite stable and rational. These terms are used to denigrate entire swathes of people, most of whom are just asking questions or trying to piece together an actual timeline because the real investigative journalism has been lost in the pursuit to further 'Believe this story at all cost. Accept no contrary viewpoints'. We're not looking for 'allies', we're looking for fairness. Because unscrupulous coverage stands out like a sore thumb (Think the NHS Brexit bus!)The rebuttals are as broadly sourced and have as much integrity as the original allegations. The real question for the influencers like yourself is not 'who is right?', it is 'why are not both points of the argument being allowed the same amount of oxygen, given this led to a mans death?'.
At the end of the day I'm a live and let live person, I'm happy for people to believe whatever they want. If they speak from a point of ignorance I will attempt to put forward something that makes them think differently as self discovery is better than prejudiced edicts. What we have now is people acting thick disingenuously to look morally superior which is beyond me. They'll deliberately misinterpret, misquote, mis-screenshot something. They'll then inject a supposition that can be questionably backed up with a small out of context piece of information and then quickly make a statement that if you oppose what they say, you belong to the worst sub cultures of modern society. Even yourself cropped out the table from the initial post (gold background) and deliberately omitted the following snippets:
TraceTheTong has put together a personal yet informative summary of events so far. These are provided for convenience and are not meant to be used as an authoritative source
The cost of moral superiority is intellectual honesty on the internet. It's not a price worth paying for some of us.
nush
Gold Member
"Nothing to do with gaming" when it helps us silence the truth.
JimmyJones
Banned
Hello, folks. I was kindly invited byCrustyBritches and
EviLore .
I am the author of the Post Millennial articles on the Zoe Quinn issue (which is far, far, faaaaar from over).
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
I've nothing further to say on the topic that hasn't already been said. However, I am followin it with interest, in as much as other actors in the same sphere are determined to scrub it from sight.
I would like to lend my voice to those already praising
davidjaffe
,
A
AnnaSlatz
,
TraceTheTong
,
EviLore
and
Mod of War
for their input and encouragement of civil discourse and critical thinking.
If nothing else, I'm heartened by the displays of integrity shown. A commodity far too rare in today's world.
I would like to lend my voice to those already praising
davidjaffe
,
A
AnnaSlatz
,
TraceTheTong
,
EviLore
and
Mod of War
for their input and encouragement of civil discourse and critical thinking.If nothing else, I'm heartened by the displays of integrity shown. A commodity far too rare in today's world.
TLZ
Banned
Deathbringer.Also she now has a batman/superman spin-off, this world is fucked.
Zoe Quinn to Write DC Comics' Batman and Superman Spin-Off The Infected: Deathbringer
DC Comics announced that Zoe Quinn will team up with artist Tyler Kirkham to write a Batman and Superman spin-off titled The Infected: Deathbringer #1.
Just how fucking convenient. If I never believed in the Illuminati before, now I sure do.
tkscz
Member
Hello, folks. I was kindly invited by
I am the author of the Post Millennial articles on the Zoe Quinn issue (which is far, far, faaaaar from over).
Some background on me:
Feel free to ask any questions.
- I am not a video gamer myself.
- In 2014, during the GG controversy, I was starting University, and had nothing to do with any journalism of any kind. Certainly didn't know there even was a Gamergate happening, nor would I have cared either way.
- I align myself with radical feminism (shameless Dworkinite), and am very left-wing politically.
- Academically, I have a diploma in Criminology and Corrections, a degree in Sociology, and have started a postgrad.
Anna
Edit; In saying the above, FYI, I mean to say -- I am likely the least biased person who could ever have worked on this story ever. In the history of the world. Ever.
Only question I have is about your sources. I'm aware you can't give them out, for the safety of who they are, but from the where and/or whom you get these sources, are the trustable? One thing I strictly believe is that without trusting evidence, I can't believe in someone. I need to know what I'm hearing is the truth. Call it what you will but I'm not one to just "believe", especially in today's hit piece journalism.
I guess a better way of asking is, how trustable are your sources?
Fuz
Banned
I honestly feel bad for her. That sort of behavior comes from somewhere, and I'm prone to think she had an history of abuse that perpetuates itself.
I can't condone unleashing the twitter mob to destroy someone without any evidence, but I'm genuinely sad for her.
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Fuz
Banned
Hello, folks. I was kindly invited by
I am the author of the Post Millennial articles on the Zoe Quinn issue (which is far, far, faaaaar from over).
Some background on me:
Feel free to ask any questions.
- I am not a video gamer myself.
- In 2014, during the GG controversy, I was starting University, and had nothing to do with any journalism of any kind. Certainly didn't know there even was a Gamergate happening, nor would I have cared either way.
- I align myself with radical feminism (shameless Dworkinite), and am very left-wing politically.
- Academically, I have a diploma in Criminology and Corrections, a degree in Sociology, and have started a postgrad.
Anna
Edit; In saying the above, FYI, I mean to say -- I am likely the least biased person who could ever have worked on this story ever. In the history of the world. Ever.
Glad to have you both here.
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Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
They failed the article... And try to sweep it under the carpet. And of course acuse others.. N4G went downhill years ago.
Holy fuck that's shameless as all hell.
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petran79
Banned
davidjaffe
Thanks for being one of the main contributors of the original GOW on PS2, one of the most memorable games I have experienced
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I think that much is obvious for sure. She is a troubled individual who has gone through a lot.
Unfortunately, a thread like this one probably doesn't help the situation but where else can people talk about this?
A large portion of the blame here really does land at the feet of the "ZQ Defense Force" who really should have told her to wind her neck in about 5 or 6 years ago.
Enabling her, to the degree that it honestly feels like they would try to help her get away with anything, was always going to create this weird escalating drama that would have a bad ending. As a result someone is dead.
This is totally unacceptable and SHOULD be a wake up call but instead we see "doubling down".
At some point you become unable to counter criticism with "you're just an angry MRA incel sexist" and at some point finding the absolute worst of the worst, one in one hundred thousand, takes to try and smear ALL critics isn't going to work either.
It would be better for all concerned if a few of the major outlets came out and said "listen some of the claims against Alec Holowka cannot be reliably believed and so we have to hold our hands up and say we got this one wrong". Then just stop.
Next time the call goes out for ZQ's White Kinights to ride to the rescue just say "not until we have all the facts".
I'm sure I've said it many times in this thread alone. All that had to happen in 2014 was people in this community say "OK, there is a scandal going on, maybe some journos and indie devs aren't being very transparent in their dealings, we'll take responsibility and be better going forward".
If you are going to just let her do whatever, and then smear and hound her critics, then it's obvious that the drama will just escalate and escalate until you end up in a situation like this. She does what she wants and everyone is scared to speak up because that means you are on the side of the dreaded boogeyman. So someone ends up getting hurt.
A videogame developer more or less drove another videogame developer to suicide and the reaction from the gaming mainstream is "we can't say anything about this, sorry... oh, and anyone who talks about it is an alt-right neo-nazi!"
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Orrrrrr.....
They are the important things. It doesn't matter if a publication chooses which stories to cover or for whatever reason as long as they are factual and sourced properly. I bet these people think publications like the Guardian are unbiased. The whole premise falls apart when you ask them to name a publication which they feel covers any right wing politics or policy fairly. Another politically immature moderator making aggrandaising statements in the hunt for digital back pats. Alt-right - basically the new term to hide behind instead of actual critical thinking. Chanted like 'Avada Kedavra' to the public to kill any contrary viewpoints.
It's hilarious watching this unfold.
I mean, it's not like another hitpiece which N4G also left up is it attacking a developer?
Triternion's official statement in regards to Mordhau toxicity on the topic of gender and race
From Triternion Development Team: 'In light of recent publicity on the state of MORDHAU’s community, we would like to discuss our stance on toxicity and the topic of gender and race in our game.'n4g.com
After Transphobic Comments Spark Controversy, Ion Fury Developers Apologize For Employee Remarks
'Moving forward, Voidpoint will institute a zero-tolerance policy for this type of language and all employees and contractors will undergo mandatory sensitivity training. As part of our efforts to contribute to the work that must be done to further support these communities, we are donating...n4g.com
The rebuttals are as broadly sourced and have as much integrity as the original allegations. The real question for the influencers like yourself is not 'who is right?', it is 'why are not both points of the argument being allowed the same amount of oxygen, given this led to a mans death?'.
At the end of the day I'm a live and let live person, I'm happy for people to believe whatever they want. If they speak from a point of ignorance I will attempt to put forward something that makes them think differently as self discovery is better than prejudiced edicts. What we have now is people acting thick disingenuously to look morally superior which is beyond me. They'll deliberately misinterpret, misquote, mis-screenshot something. They'll then inject a supposition that can be questionably backed up with a small out of context piece of information and then quickly make a statement that if you oppose what they say, you belong to the worst sub cultures of modern society. Even yourself cropped out the table from the initial post (gold background) and deliberately omitted the following snippets:
The cost of moral superiority is intellectual honesty on the internet. It's not a price worth paying for some of us.
I DELIBERATELY omitted?!? Wow- not at all. I was not even aware of the surrounding text when I was cropping. I simply had to put the start of the cursor drag somewhere.
OutrageousFacts
Banned
I welcome AnnaSlatz' work (hi from twitter 
), but the question I'm left with is: What's going to happen?
Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
It seems no matter what happens, Zow Quinn goes unpunished. And that's sad and frustrating.
), but the question I'm left with is: What's going to happen?Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
It seems no matter what happens, Zow Quinn goes unpunished. And that's sad and frustrating.
raduque
Member
No, don't do that.
I welcome AnnaSlatz' work (hi from twitter
Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
It seems no matter what happens, Zow Quinn goes unpunished. And that's sad and frustrating.
We're not here to punish others.
FranXico
Member
What are the legal implications for cyber-bullying leading to suicide? Did anybody actually gather the evidence and just report it to the police?I welcome AnnaSlatz' work (hi from twitter
Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
Not only unpunished. Rewarded.
Fuz
Banned
Good point. They're partially responsible for this circle of abuse. They thought they were helping, while in fact doing the opposite.
Thabass
Member
I welcome AnnaSlatz' work (hi from twitter
Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
It seems no matter what happens, Zow Quinn goes unpunished. And that's sad and frustrating.
You seem to think that we're all here to "punish people". It's not about that. It's about getting to the truth of things. The internet has a way of twisting the narrative in one way or another without the burden of proof and truth. All we're asking for and trying to do is be more factual in these stories and get to the bottom line. There's something called due process that, in every case, should be adhered to and followed.
Nothing like this happens. Everyone jumps on the blame game and it needs to stop.
OutrageousFacts
Banned
Not what I meant. But nobody (on the side of authorities) seems to do the punishing. So all this amateur investigating is ... for naught? Thate what I mean.
ThatGamingDude
I am a virgin
Yeah I'm not buying that holmes. You're either randomly incredibly naive when it comes to posting on social media, or you just plain had one of those human "I'm a doofus," moments. I would hope it would be the doofus sort of moment, but it doesn't line up.
You exhibited the same behavior as the Twitter and other associated mobs do; posting as a public figure (You have 47k followers on Twitter) and pointing a negative finger at an individual/group.
If you were REALLY about not generating controversy for your stream, why not come to us directly instead of blasting it out on Twitter?
Mind you, I take no offense in the things you said, but your tone definitely goes from "Being in disgust," to talking level headed with us pretty quickly.
Gavin Stevens
's response is something I highly agree with; it's not just a school thing, that's how a ton of managers handle squabbling between their staff too.Don't be the fire to the powder keg.
tl;dr It may have not been your intent to generate controversy and have more people tune into your stream, but it's a consequence (Both positive and negative) of your actions. You should stop for a moment and think before posting on social media, regardless if you and I both feel we shouldn't have to stop and think before doing so; that is just the era we live in. Get with it.
Screen shotted. I used to dig Jeremy when he first started making content for vidya, but he turned out to be such a man-baby.
Maybe post out some tweets at The Quartering regarding a topic you've been following then "randomly wake up to messages from Jeremy and decide to cover it in part of your stream."
See what I did there? Your response seems completely disingenuous regarding your viewership
Hello, folks. I was kindly invited by
I am the author of the Post Millennial articles on the Zoe Quinn issue (which is far, far, faaaaar from over).
Some background on me:
Feel free to ask any questions.
- I am not a video gamer myself.
- In 2014, during the GG controversy, I was starting University, and had nothing to do with any journalism of any kind. Certainly didn't know there even was a Gamergate happening, nor would I have cared either way.
- I align myself with radical feminism (shameless Dworkinite), and am very left-wing politically.
- Academically, I have a diploma in Criminology and Corrections, a degree in Sociology, and have started a postgrad.
Anna
Edit; In saying the above, FYI, I mean to say -- I am likely the least biased person who could ever have worked on this story ever. In the history of the world. Ever.
Word, doesn't sound like you'll be poking around with us too much, but you're more than welcome to shoot the shit with us
Nice to have you around for the chat on this topic, since you actually do some foot work to write your pieces.
DunDunDunpachi
Banned
Sometimes awareness is enough. You can't force people to exit the cult.
And don't think otherwise: this is a cult situation and we are just outsiders banging on the windows.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
If I was in David Jaffe's position, I wouldn't touch this subject with a 10-foot bargepole.
Seriously, we all know what the ramifications are for anyone with a profile questioning, let alone going against the narrative. Any comment that doesn't reinforce that narrative is painting a target on their back, and no matter how careful or measured the verbiage you just know its going to be pored over by self-styled activists looking for "coded-language" that proves them to be "one of them".
Colin Moriarty got professionally excommunicated for a "Dad" joke, and years on people were still agitating enough to get his PAX panel rejected.
That's the reality, and its horrific.
There is no diversity, politically-speaking, in the mainstream gaming media. They all speak with one voice, which is why challenging a sacred cow like ZQ is going to get nowhere even in cases as egregious as this. Its just collateral damage as part of a"greater good". And as Himmler once said. "you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs".
Seriously, we all know what the ramifications are for anyone with a profile questioning, let alone going against the narrative. Any comment that doesn't reinforce that narrative is painting a target on their back, and no matter how careful or measured the verbiage you just know its going to be pored over by self-styled activists looking for "coded-language" that proves them to be "one of them".
Colin Moriarty got professionally excommunicated for a "Dad" joke, and years on people were still agitating enough to get his PAX panel rejected.
That's the reality, and its horrific.
There is no diversity, politically-speaking, in the mainstream gaming media. They all speak with one voice, which is why challenging a sacred cow like ZQ is going to get nowhere even in cases as egregious as this. Its just collateral damage as part of a"greater good". And as Himmler once said. "you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs".
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The "gaming press" did no serious investigation into the veracity of Chelsea's claims because they helped frame the situation behind the scenes. Same old dog and pony show as politics.
Fun facts:
1. The "peanut gallery" as David so eloquently put it, actually bothered to test the veracity of Zoe's claims against her own Twitter account and found that she had made hundreds of Tweets during her stay with Alec, many of which contradict her own testimony(not that Zoe presented any evidence at all).
2. The first thing the "peanut gallery" did was remove the, literally, hundreds of Tweets and report the situation to the RCMP.
3. The second thing the "peanut gallery" did was turn the evidence over to an investigative reporter, Anna Slatz.
4. The "peanut gallery" continues to uncover treasure troves of pertinent information.
---
You are so behind the game, David. Too busy virtue signaling to look into the facts. GAF don't play that game. Follow the money and show me the receipts is the future of the truth.
Fun facts:
1. The "peanut gallery" as David so eloquently put it, actually bothered to test the veracity of Zoe's claims against her own Twitter account and found that she had made hundreds of Tweets during her stay with Alec, many of which contradict her own testimony(not that Zoe presented any evidence at all).
2. The first thing the "peanut gallery" did was remove the, literally, hundreds of Tweets and report the situation to the RCMP.
3. The second thing the "peanut gallery" did was turn the evidence over to an investigative reporter, Anna Slatz.
4. The "peanut gallery" continues to uncover treasure troves of pertinent information.
---
You are so behind the game, David. Too busy virtue signaling to look into the facts. GAF don't play that game. Follow the money and show me the receipts is the future of the truth.
Knivess
Neo Member
Hey David, First of all thanks for coming by to discuss this with us, its a shame more people couldn't find way to sit in the same forum of discussion and try to see each other point of view. You're right that this subject has become extremely polarised, unfortunately its only going to become more so since 1 "side" of the discussion seems determined to silence and censor all dissent, scrubbing opposing views from anywhere they can edit and DDoS'ing whatever they can't.
One area where i disagree with you is to say that we're only looking for information which corroborates our version of events, on the contrary if you read back through some of the first pages of this thread you'll see that many people were perfectly willing to accept her side of events may have been based on much truth. Most of the debate was over:
1. The fact that she was posting them straight to twitter without even attempting to use legitimate legal routes first.
2. The age and suspicious timing of these tweets to line up with other accusers. (Granted time is not always a relevant factor, sometimes it takes time until a victim feels safe to come forward or even comes to terms with the fact that there was a crime. However given ZQ's extreme willingness to accuse people in the past and outspokenness on the subject it's just a hard pill to swallow that she sat on this for so long)
3. How incredibly vague many of the claims were, it was quite unclear what exactly people were accusing him of and seemed like she was trying to equate what he did with other crimes by a completely different person. Indeed many people repeated referred to him as a rapist despite that never being a part of the original accusation.
Most of her claim seems to revolve around the idea of false imprisonment which i believe Anna has largely disproven. Even Scott who was so happy to throw him under the bus couldn't seemingly level any accusations of any actual crime at Alec, only that he was unreliable as a colleague, really.
I personally didn't start with any strong feelings one way or the other about ZQ but i don't mind admitting the more i've learned about her the more i can't stand her. If it were just one controversy she might get the benefit of the doubt but it seems like her entire life has been one long controversy and STILL she is held up like some perfect angel by many, its not surprising that pisses many people off. That said i hate mob mentally and want no part of mob justice on anyone, including ZQ. I only want what most here do which is an open discussion and a chance to overturn some of the propaganda being thrown our way.
Hello, folks. I was kindly invited by
I am the author of the Post Millennial articles on the Zoe Quinn issue (which is far, far, faaaaar from over).
Some background on me:
Feel free to ask any questions.
- I am not a video gamer myself.
- In 2014, during the GG controversy, I was starting University, and had nothing to do with any journalism of any kind. Certainly didn't know there even was a Gamergate happening, nor would I have cared either way.
- I align myself with radical feminism (shameless Dworkinite), and am very left-wing politically.
- Academically, I have a diploma in Criminology and Corrections, a degree in Sociology, and have started a postgrad.
Anna
Edit; In saying the above, FYI, I mean to say -- I am likely the least biased person who could ever have worked on this story ever. In the history of the world. Ever.
Good to see you Anna, excellent work on these articles. Truly does remind us of the importance of real journalism and real journalistic integrity. Its genuinely scary to see the extent to which the media can shape a narrative when they decide to work together to put a certain spin on events or ignore them completely and why changes are desperately needed in this circus we call games journalism.
Virex
Banned
The wheel turns my friend. One day all this shit is going to catch up to her.I welcome AnnaSlatz' work (hi from twitter
Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
It seems no matter what happens, Zow Quinn goes unpunished. And that's sad and frustrating.
OutrageousFacts
Banned
I mean, I'd hope that uncovering all this at least lead to negative repercussions for Kotaku, Eurogamer, Engadet and Co, who published one-sided articles, hid Alec's true manner of death (suicide is not 'has died') and make no efforts at all to question the validity of Zoe Quins statements.
If these websites get away with literal fake news, then all hope is lost.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I may be behind the game. I admit I didn't read every message on the 60+ page thread. I also admit that I may not always recall if a message came to me via reading GAF or twitter and so I may be confusing- at times- which site is (at any given time) leaning one way or another about a particular issue.
But man, y'all need to stop with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is 'virtue signaling'. It's such a shitty way to argue and debate. God forbid I would simply have an alternative view. But no, that's not possible. No way could I simple disagree with you; instead my views that you don't like HAVE to stem from the fact that I just want people to think I'm 'woke'. Goodness.
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DunDunDunpachi
Banned
Nah, hope is not lost. Most haven't had any integrity since the early PS3/360 era so it's not like something monumental has changed since then. The only difference is instead of fanboy console war, it's ideological war dressed up as "inclusiveness" and "representation".
Hi guys,
Sorry for the late replies, I absolutely had to get some sleep last night as I had an early day today. I hope I got everyone!
This story was brought to my attention, I did not actively seek it out. A long-time follower and reader plunked it on my desk, and asked for my assistance. Many folks believe I sought it out on KiwiFarms. I did not. A follower approached me with the evidence, and asked me to follow up. I did so.
I have an interest in truth. Speaking the truth is feminism. Speaking out against hegemonic power is an act of feminism. Simply because one is female, and even if one calls oneself a feminist, does not mean one occupies a female space. Words are words. I am not a tomato just because I say I am.
Frankly, the suggestion that feminists are not interested in truth, or that social justice feminism is the be-all-end-all of feminist ideology is incorrect and offensive. There are many schools of feminist thought, and social justice feminism (often referred to as "third wave feminism") is a very recent manifestation of an intellectual tradition that lived far before it, and will live on after it.
Appropriating the struggles of domestic violence survivors is not feminism.
Falsely accusing individuals of sexual assault is not feminism.
Giving fodder to misguided individuals to be able to suggest that the very real, very pervasive issue of abuse, rape, and sexism are not as real and pervasive as they are is not feminism.
As for your other point: The Post Millennial is probably the most intellectually diverse team I have ever worked with. Both of my editors are left-wing, and I love them dearly. I did not try to sell this scoop elsewhere. I have always given my biggest scoops to TPM. This is because I respect what the platform has done for me and my career.
I don't consider myself a (may Allah forgive me for uttering this word) journalist. I never have. I never will. I'm an asshole with a computer and a platform who gives a shit about the truth.
I am not a lawyer, however, but having a background in criminology and having worked with lawyers here are my legal two cents:
The police would have gotten involved had Quinn demanded, encouraged, or incited Holowka to commit suicide. She did not (however, if there were any people encouraging Holowka to commit suicide just prior to his doing so, please let me know and I can forward this to the WPS contact I now have). What the legal insinuation would be was that Quinn's accusation was the catalyst for Holowka's suicide.
in effect, that had Quinn not released her statement, Holowka would not have committed suicide.
This would make it a civil matter, meaning that the executor of Holowka's representation (likely his family, though could have been his spouse, girlfriend, etc...) may be able to sue Zoe Quinn for her liability in causing the suicide.
Just before all of this happened, in August, a mother in the UK sued the boyfriend of her deceased daughter for having allegedly caused her suicide due to his emotional and sometimes physical abuse. She alleges that had he not been so callous towards her, she would still be alive.
Earlier this year, Jerry Springer was sued by the family of a man who committed suicide after appearing on his show, citing the mental distress of the taping and airing of the episode.
Considering the timing of the events (Holowka lost his relationship with NITW, the game he had worked so hard on and revolved his life around, immediately after the Quinn's statement, committing suicide almost immediately after), I believe it meets many of the standards lawyers would look at to take the case on.
Sorry for the late replies, I absolutely had to get some sleep last night as I had an early day today. I hope I got everyone!
This story was brought to my attention, I did not actively seek it out. A long-time follower and reader plunked it on my desk, and asked for my assistance. Many folks believe I sought it out on KiwiFarms. I did not. A follower approached me with the evidence, and asked me to follow up. I did so.
I have an interest in truth. Speaking the truth is feminism. Speaking out against hegemonic power is an act of feminism. Simply because one is female, and even if one calls oneself a feminist, does not mean one occupies a female space. Words are words. I am not a tomato just because I say I am.
Frankly, the suggestion that feminists are not interested in truth, or that social justice feminism is the be-all-end-all of feminist ideology is incorrect and offensive. There are many schools of feminist thought, and social justice feminism (often referred to as "third wave feminism") is a very recent manifestation of an intellectual tradition that lived far before it, and will live on after it.
Appropriating the struggles of domestic violence survivors is not feminism.
Falsely accusing individuals of sexual assault is not feminism.
Giving fodder to misguided individuals to be able to suggest that the very real, very pervasive issue of abuse, rape, and sexism are not as real and pervasive as they are is not feminism.
As for your other point: The Post Millennial is probably the most intellectually diverse team I have ever worked with. Both of my editors are left-wing, and I love them dearly. I did not try to sell this scoop elsewhere. I have always given my biggest scoops to TPM. This is because I respect what the platform has done for me and my career.
I don't consider myself a (may Allah forgive me for uttering this word) journalist. I never have. I never will. I'm an asshole with a computer and a platform who gives a shit about the truth.
I welcome AnnaSlatz' work (hi from twitter
Jaffe is right in so far as this is an investigation the police should do. But apparently nothing is being done? So now we found out she's been lying. Now what?
It seems no matter what happens, Zow Quinn goes unpunished. And that's sad and frustrating.
I am not a lawyer, however, but having a background in criminology and having worked with lawyers here are my legal two cents:
The police would have gotten involved had Quinn demanded, encouraged, or incited Holowka to commit suicide. She did not (however, if there were any people encouraging Holowka to commit suicide just prior to his doing so, please let me know and I can forward this to the WPS contact I now have). What the legal insinuation would be was that Quinn's accusation was the catalyst for Holowka's suicide.
in effect, that had Quinn not released her statement, Holowka would not have committed suicide.
This would make it a civil matter, meaning that the executor of Holowka's representation (likely his family, though could have been his spouse, girlfriend, etc...) may be able to sue Zoe Quinn for her liability in causing the suicide.
Just before all of this happened, in August, a mother in the UK sued the boyfriend of her deceased daughter for having allegedly caused her suicide due to his emotional and sometimes physical abuse. She alleges that had he not been so callous towards her, she would still be alive.
Earlier this year, Jerry Springer was sued by the family of a man who committed suicide after appearing on his show, citing the mental distress of the taping and airing of the episode.
Considering the timing of the events (Holowka lost his relationship with NITW, the game he had worked so hard on and revolved his life around, immediately after the Quinn's statement, committing suicide almost immediately after), I believe it meets many of the standards lawyers would look at to take the case on.
Sleepy Buddha
Member
The similarities to 5 years ago are uncanny. But it's even worse now because they managed to get away with it then.
It's very unfortunate we didn't have someone in media like AnnaSlatz looking into the ZoePost, the evidence and the subsequent media collusion and coverup. Others tried , but were dismissed as trolls or worse, and some bludgeoned into submission.
Maybe we wouldn't have ended up back at square one and a life wouldn't have been lost...
Barnabot
Member
What annoys me is: didn't Alec have friends? I mean real friend. Maybe Relatives? Anyone who cared about him enough to go on and press charges against Zoe?
I must say it's impossible to exist a single person in this world who doesn't have anyone who cares about him or her in this life. Even the shittiest people around have at least someone who cares about them.
I must say it's impossible to exist a single person in this world who doesn't have anyone who cares about him or her in this life. Even the shittiest people around have at least someone who cares about them.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Depends on their position. It is hard to go against the current popular "believe all women/accusations" mantra that seems to be ever prevalent. Could risk losing their own jobs.