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Philosophy |OT| where to begin?

ProudClod

Non-existent Member
Fuck most of this advice. People are overloading you. Ignore everything but what I'm about to say.

There are tens of thousands of super interesting philosophy books, and at least a few thousand that would be considered "seminal" (in their respective disciplines and geographical areas).

Problem is, most of them are a really shitty place to start.

Most "academic" philosophy work written in the past 100 years is so far up its own ass it should only be read as a curiosity.

At best, it's pedantic drivel that attempts to mask fundamental problems of knowledge and logic with infinite regression and unnecessarily complex meta analysis. At worst, it's unreadable drivel that'll make you feel like a dyslexic child having a stroke.

Seriously, try reading this.

Further, the most fascinating philosophical problems were identified thousands of years ago. Today's philosophy is still dealing with the same exact problems that the ancient Greeks identified - albeit with a more modern language, a larger pool of anecdotal cultural experience to inform their intuitions, and more layers of bullshit.

And the unanswered philosophical dilemmas? Well - there's way too many too list in this post.

So, I say there's only two logical starting points.

Either:

A) Start with the existential questions you find most interesting (death, reality, logic, knowledge, morality etc.), and just go down the rabbit hole in whatever direction curiosity takes you.
B) Start chronologically. Begin with the foundational questions that people have been writing down since they could write, so you could enjoy reading subsequent generations failing to answer them.

Actually, I lied, there's a secret option.

C) Start with the Eastern traditions if you like to trip on acid and listen to Alan Watts videos.

Source: I have a Bachelor of Philosophy.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Fuck most of this advice. People are overloading you. Ignore everything but what I'm about to say.
Why did you proceed to parrot what people already offered? I thought you were going to wow us with new insights.

Source: I have a Bachelor of Philosophy.
That would explain the cookie-cutter outlook on philosophy. Your curiosity and hunger for knowledge were beaten out of you! ;)

Instead of telling the rest of us how useless most of philosophy is, how 'bout you put that useless degree to good use and contribute your knowledge to the thread. I have no formal philosophical university schooling so I'd love to hear insights from higher education.
 

iamblades

Member
If people feel like adding to the list or proposing changes, feel free to mention me in your comments and I will update the list accordingly.

Pretty decent list. Two works that absolutely should be added to the list are The Theory of Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith(much overlooked compared to his more famous second book), and Marcus Aurelius's Meditations. The latter of which is is hugely important and influential, even if not entirely original.

I am also personally very partial to Bastiat's The Law, as far as political philosophy goes. It also has the advantage of being a short pamphlet that can be read in like an hour, which is nice.
 
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Ignore everything but what I'm about to say.

How very philosophical of you...

A) Start with the existential questions you find most interesting (death, reality, logic, knowledge, morality etc.), and just go down the rabbit hole in whatever direction curiosity takes you.

Which is the exact same approach that has been proposed in this topic.


That's a perfectly fine paper comparing two different positions on determinism.

Source: I have a Bachelor of Philosophy.

I wasn't aware they were handing out bachelor degrees in gumball machines nowadays.

Pretty decent list. Two works that absolutely should be added to the list are The Theory of Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith(much overlooked compared to his more famous second book), and Marcus Aurelius's Meditations. The latter of which is is hugely important and influential, even if not entirely original. I am also personally very partial to Bastiat's The Law, as far as political philosophy goes. It also has the advantage of being a short pamphlet that can be read in like an hour, which is nice.

Sure, do you have any particular notions and sourced you'd like to add as well?
 

iamblades

Member
How very philosophical of you...



Which is the exact same approach that has been proposed in this topic.



That's a perfectly fine paper comparing two different positions on determinism.



I wasn't aware they were handing out bachelor degrees in gumball machines nowadays.



Sure, do you have any particular notions and sourced you'd like to add as well?

The Theory of Moral Sentiments

Notions: morality, ethics, individual rights.

Meditations

Notions: pretty wide ranging, but mostly Stoicism

The Law

Notions - individual rights, natural law.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
I like the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy
(note the url, plato.stanford, but it covers far more stuff than just plato)

I recommend entries on time, consciousness, and free will for a start.
Good source.

Maybe it's a crutch, but I keep several references handy when studying philosophy. Quickly looking up a term instead of fumbling through a text is essential. It's a good discipline to have, generally speaking, even if you've sharpened your ability to infer meaning from context.

I thought their article on transcendental idealism was packed with details.
 

Breakage

Member
hey B Breakage what's the status on this? Reading anything interesting?
Hey man, I downloaded a bunch of books (Voltaire's Candide, Aurelius' Meditations, and a book on the history of Western philosophy) on to my Kindle. I plan to look through them at the weekend, hopefully. I thought it was worth getting the history book to help me get a structured idea of how things developed.
Also picked up A Clockwork Orange (was gonna mention it in your thread on dystopian novels) as I feel it's quite revelant to today's England.
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
A Clockwork Orange is absolutely wonderful. I really did enjoy it. I'll be back on the philosophy soon enough, but after I finished Neuromancer (also amazing) someone here mentioned Children of Time which also turned out to be brilliant. Too many amazing books, not enough time. History Of Western Philosophy first probably to get the basic primer before I hit the hard stuff.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Hey man, I downloaded a bunch of books (Voltaire's Candide, Aurelius' Meditations, and a book on the history of Western philosophy) on to my Kindle. I plan to look through them at the weekend, hopefully. I thought it was worth getting the history book to help me get a structured idea of how things developed.
Also picked up A Clockwork Orange (was gonna mention it in your thread on dystopian novels) as I feel it's quite revelant to today's England.
Nice! Looking forward to hearing what you think of those.
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Currently working my way through A History of Western Philosophy to give myself a basic primer before deciding where to go next. Really fascinating stuff, gets the brain juices flowing nicely. The author's preferences and biases are fairly transparent, which is no bad thing. It's actually really exciting to question where my ideas of morality come from and to see some history behind how the ideas of my time, of which I am clearly a product, came to be, and how the human condition can be manipulated (Plato's Republic and its relation to Sparta was particularly fascinating, if absolutely fucking terrifying too). Anyway don't mind me, just bumping an epic thread.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
I wouldn't worry too much where to start. Just find something well written on a topic you're interested in. If you want a general overview you're probably better off auditing intro philosophy lectures online or listening to podcasts like philosophy bites, philosophy 24/7 or philosophy talk. If you must read an overview of (western) philosophy maybe try A Little History of Philosophy by Nigel Warburton. Once you've got your feet wet with popular works in your chosen topics then you can check out summarizing series like Blackwvell's or Cambridge Companion to x type books

I was told to read classic works initially and for me that was a huge mistake because those works need context and supports to interpret.

edit: other podcasts with some more, some less interesting episodes, maybe too much academese in some of the latter ones - meaningoflife.tv, In Our Time, very bad wizards, pansycast, the philosophers zone, the partially examined life, history of philosophy without any gaps, philosophy bakes bread, hi-phi nation, rationally speaking, the forum for philosophy, political philosophy podcast, interventions, the verdict,
 
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ROMhack

Member
Good bump. One of the beautiful things about philosophy is that it's entirely worthless. It's an inherently flawed object of concern which is totally remiss in a society where exactitude is expressed with sincerest reverence. To study philosophy is to study a history of human intellect in all of its deformities and virtues. There's no actual starting point but a book such as A History of Western Philosophy is an excellent primer for delving into topics that interest you.
 
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I think we all strive for our ideal, our vision of a perfect ideal world, held back by our constraints, yet by transcending our limitations I believe we can indeed attain entry into an ideal world, though it may be alien to the standards of man.
 

Scotty W

Member
Plato- Republic, Symposium and Apology

If you are going to get started, I think it is important to have good writing.

Descartes- Meditations

The beginning of modern philosophy

I like histories of philosophy. Bertrand Russell is good if biased; Frederick Copleston is useful; one of my first books was a big DK picture book called the Story of Philosophy.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
ill have to watch this later. i read his book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! and it was really great. he talks about his love of safe cracking and also his work on the Manhattan Project.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned




 

Tesseract

Banned



easy dude, feynman loved philosophy
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
easy dude, feynman loved philosophy

he's on record with similar nay-saying quotes like "“Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds.” and "Scientists are explorers. Philosophers are tourists." but you're right we shouldn't inflate disciplinary sniping when he was clearly interested in philosophical questions. see for example this conciliatory article:

 
Subbed. Looking forward to recommendations. Anything to cure the postmodern depression. Went back to episode one of "Philosophize This". Easy to listen to on the weekends in the mornings.
 
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Hope it's not a problem to share some thoughts, ask some questions? Ignore this if it doesn't relate to you or your philosophy. I might post a video that relates to what I'm about to say.

I spent yesterday trawling through some Twitter accounts of professors and PhDs and career specialists who are in the field of Teaching English as a Foreign Language and I was left in utter shock and amazement. The whole undercurrent of the field is changing from objectivity to madness. I'm kind of in the field myself and had no idea the philosophical base for teaching English as a worldwide language was changing so much. Every single professional, every single post, was about the evilness of white skin colour, and minority non-standard Englishes being brought to the forefront. I found this through a Polish TEFL equity blog and I hadn't really looked into the scene before yesterday. No joke, it was like Clown World.

So my thoughts are that this madness needs to slow down. I worried about how it is to dissect these postmodern (?) ideas and I realised that it is that each individual is responsible for their actions, not the group identity that were born into/live through. Identity politics is massively running the future of teaching English, even down to teaching the singular pronoun they/them in school books going forward (I know this "they" thing is a surface level thing, almost a joke, but it's there). Nothing else is being researched or recommended as learning techniques or material other than racism racism racism.

Like I say, as I'm kind of in the industry and I believe in the Enlightenment philosophies/real compassion of Buddhism, I find it a danger to society that this is it. Countering this change will have real world repercussions, as a non-believer of this cult will find themselves without a job, and it's difficult to argue against the postmodern attack on objectivity in language teaching and standard values.

TL;DR English Language as a Foreign Language internationally is being dissolved into identity politics philosophy and it makes me sad. Here's some cool videos if you don't care about this. Have a nice day GAF, I mean well.

Edit: I guess if this is a ""where to begin with philosophy" thread, my interest lies in trying to understand the half a millennia (?) of anti-reason and the current destruction of decent people's values.



 
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DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
The Scrivener The Scrivener I can offer a silver lining. Post-modernism seems to result in either nihilistic inaction or cult-like overreaction from its adherents (and of course, I'm painting broadly because few people are introspective enough to go "aha, yes, I am a postmodernist therefore I believe..." ).

We are seeing it with the increasingly-flaccid political power of these movements. We are seeing it when comparing birthrates between liberals and conservatives. Their ideology can only subvert, it can't really build. It is why their efforts to 'build' new rules for language feel so disjointed and contrived. It won't last. At worst, some sympathetic tech company like Grammarly or Google will fold their fake language rules into their autocorrect services for awhile.

Like the die-hard hippies of yesteryear, they are burning too fast and too brightly, so they will be left without substantial money or children to pass on their ideas to future generations. The fact that they must parasitically latch onto government artifices (including public education) to pass on their ideology should be taken as a sign that they are 'sterile', unable to reproduce under normal means.
 
The Scrivener The Scrivener I can offer a silver lining. Post-modernism seems to result in either nihilistic inaction or cult-like overreaction from its adherents (and of course, I'm painting broadly because few people are introspective enough to go "aha, yes, I am a postmodernist therefore I believe..." ).

We are seeing it with the increasingly-flaccid political power of these movements. We are seeing it when comparing birthrates between liberals and conservatives. Their ideology can only subvert, it can't really build. It is why their efforts to 'build' new rules for language feel so disjointed and contrived. It won't last. At worst, some sympathetic tech company like Grammarly or Google will fold their fake language rules into their autocorrect services for awhile.

Like the die-hard hippies of yesteryear, they are burning too fast and too brightly, so they will be left without substantial money or children to pass on their ideas to future generations. The fact that they must parasitically latch onto government artifices (including public education) to pass on their ideology should be taken as a sign that they are 'sterile', unable to reproduce under normal means.

Interesting, thanks. It's fast but it's insidious too. And it's on the fringe as a subversion, but my concern is that next generation we will see ideas being taught that are, dare I say it, inhumane, lol. It seems that as it's such a powerful movement, that people copy it without being aware of the deeper levels it works on, they follow the trend. I'm no expert, far from it, I'm just trying to learn. My silver lining is that I can learn to counter this toxic philosophy with some Aristotelian ass-whoopin'.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Interesting, thanks. It's fast but it's insidious too. And it's on the fringe as a subversion, but my concern is that next generation we will see ideas being taught that are, dare I say it, inhumane, lol. It seems that as it's such a powerful movement, that people copy it without being aware of the deeper levels it works on, they follow the trend. I'm no expert, far from it, I'm just trying to learn. My silver lining is that I can learn to counter this toxic philosophy with some Aristotelian ass-whoopin'.
Yeah I think it's all bluster and no substance. Social movements built on these kinds of ideas can last a few decades but this isn't even the most effective version of their parent ideology (marxism). The speed and intensity should be taken as a symptom that there is little to no underpinning structure, so whatever power they might seize will be lost in the inevitable cultural shift.

Sandcastles, nothing more.
 

Kev Kev

Member
i only took an intro to philosophy class (just last semester) but i absolutely loved it. i kind of wish it was more involved, but i'm a music major and just needed the class to satisfy my requirements

however, in music theory i often initiate an interesting philosophical conversation, which starts with this question:

-Why do minor chords sound dark/sad and major chords sound bright/happy???

here's video demonstrating the differences of the quality between a major and minor chord...



it usually comes down to a 'well, which came first the chicken or the egg?' conclusion, meaning, do humans have something in their brain and /or mind that automatically (innate/nature) hears those chords that way or is this something that a human or group of humans decided and has now been passed down (learned/nurture)?

now, chords are really just comprised of intervals. one very popular and important interval is a fifth (which happens to be the interval between the first two notes of the star wars theme). a fifth in music sounds very consonant (the good), while two notes a half step apart sound extremely dissonant (the bad). but the question is, what is it about that dissonance that causes us such alarm? and what is it about the consonance that fills us with the feeling of satisfaction? is their an evolutionary mechanic at work here that we don't need anymore, or maybe we still use it but don't realize it?

here's a video demonstrating the difference in intervals, this is a little harder to hear than the video above, but you can easily here a fifth (or 7 smemitones) sounds very bright/happy, or otherwise consonant. while a half step (or 1 semitone) sounds dark/sad/alarming, or otherwise dissonant.



like, i can't think of a lot of instances in nature that sounds like a dissonant minor 2nd or minor chord that is now naturally imbedded into our physical biology and/or conscious minds, which now elicits that repulsed feeling we feel when hear it. and vice versa with a consonant interval like a fifth or major chord. so how can it just be nature/innate in that sense?

or is this something innate that has broader, meta-physical implications like certain frequencies tap into something in our conscious minds that causes us to feel this?

is it purely a brain/chemical reaction thing that makes us feel happy when feel a major chord/consonant interval and the opposite when we hear a minor chord/dissonant interval?

WOW that is a mess of a post, sorry :messenger_grimmacing_ i'm not a student of philosophy really, so some of my terminology, ideas, premise or whatever are probably whack, so sorry about that. hopefully someone out there read through this book of a post and has some feedback. thanks!
 
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DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
I do believe that humans are naturally attuned to things like music and art because of our conscious soul. Some religions even postulate that we were "made to worship" i.e. naturally inclined to making complex, internally-consistent music to express our spirituality.

Normally I would accept the argument that our attraction to music is only cultural and we only hear "happy" and "sad" tones because of culture (to some degree that may be true), but I'm on my fourth newborn and I've noticed that kids react to different music very differently. The young ones have no social context for what is "happy" or "sad" yet some music soothes them and some music irritates them.
 
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Karma Jawa

Member
I got my PhD in philosophy (more specifically, aesthetics and creativity) 5 years ago.

In my experience there is no correct way to get into it. Officially it would be from the beginning, but in all honesty I’d imagine that would kill your interest pretty quickly.

I got into it by reading Anti-Oedipus by Deleuze and Guattari when I was 19. I’d read Thus Spake Zarathustra by Nietzsche 3 years earlier, but it was Deleuze that fired up my interest. From there I worked backwards. He wrote about Spinoza, so I read Spinoza. He talked about Marx, Freud, and Hume, so I read them too. Kant was mentioned a fair bit, so I read Kant. Very dry, but if you stick with it it becomes pure genius.

After that I read a few works by the older Greeks, then Socrates (Plato), Plato, and Aristotle. Descartes and Leibniz were useful, then returned to Nietzsche and read the lot. After that it was Derrida, Foucault, and Heidegger. Fell in love with the latter. Being and Time is his classic, but Parmenides is his best work, in my opinion. Spent a lot of time on Adorno and Benjamin. Most of the above was before and during my doc studies.

Since then it’s been Hegel, Kristeva, Schopenhauer, and various stragglers like Badiou.

That’s a rough outline of my path. Dive in to whatever seems interesting and don’t worry about the technical language or references to past works that you don’t understand. If you want further clarity just read what they’re referring to.

Push comes to shove? Deleuze. A thinker highly relevant to contemporary times (though as a militant anti-capitalist in the 60s to death in the 90s he might ruffle feathers). He’d be disgusted by the SJW attitude today. I highly doubt he’d like Trump, but I think he’d be interested in the waves he’s created. Deleuze also wrote a lot of books about past and contemporary philosophers that help as an introduction, but just be aware that those philosophers are described through the lens of his point of view.

Feel free to PM me.
 

ROMhack

Member
I got my PhD in philosophy (more specifically, aesthetics and creativity) 5 years ago.

In my experience there is no correct way to get into it. Officially it would be from the beginning, but in all honesty I’d imagine that would kill your interest pretty quickly.

I got into it by reading Anti-Oedipus by Deleuze and Guattari when I was 19. I’d read Thus Spake Zarathustra by Nietzsche 3 years earlier, but it was Deleuze that fired up my interest. From there I worked backwards. He wrote about Spinoza, so I read Spinoza. He talked about Marx, Freud, and Hume, so I read them too. Kant was mentioned a fair bit, so I read Kant. Very dry, but if you stick with it it becomes pure genius.

After that I read a few works by the older Greeks, then Socrates (Plato), Plato, and Aristotle. Descartes and Leibniz were useful, then returned to Nietzsche and read the lot. After that it was Derrida, Foucault, and Heidegger. Fell in love with the latter. Being and Time is his classic, but Parmenides is his best work, in my opinion. Spent a lot of time on Adorno and Benjamin. Most of the above was before and during my doc studies.

Since then it’s been Hegel, Kristeva, Schopenhauer, and various stragglers like Badiou.

That’s a rough outline of my path. Dive in to whatever seems interesting and don’t worry about the technical language or references to past works that you don’t understand. If you want further clarity just read what they’re referring to.

Push comes to shove? Deleuze. A thinker highly relevant to contemporary times (though as a militant anti-capitalist in the 60s to death in the 90s he might ruffle feathers). He’d be disgusted by the SJW attitude today. I highly doubt he’d like Trump, but I think he’d be interested in the waves he’s created. Deleuze also wrote a lot of books about past and contemporary philosophers that help as an introduction, but just be aware that those philosophers are described through the lens of his point of view.

Feel free to PM me.

Great post!

What are you up to these days? I've always wondered where people go with a PhD in Philosophy aside from staying in academia.
 

Karma Jawa

Member
Great post!

What are you up to these days? I've always wondered where people go with a PhD in Philosophy aside from staying in academia.

Thanks.

Still in academia, teaching in a university.

The idea is to eventually start writing prolifically, but after those years of study I still feel a bit burnt out.

I know some go down the corporate route, freelancing stuff like business ethics or problem-solving.
 

ROMhack

Member
Thanks.

Still in academia, teaching in a university.

The idea is to eventually start writing prolifically, but after those years of study I still feel a bit burnt out.

I know some go down the corporate route, freelancing stuff like business ethics or problem-solving.

Awesome. Good to know things are going well :_)
 

12Goblins

Lil’ Gobbie
Plato's Apology is the best place to start IMO.

Plato
Aristotle
Descartes
Hume
Kant
Wittgenstein
Kripke

To be continued
 

Excess

Member
Anyone ever read Philosophy Bro? It's a great source to give you a general idea of what many great philosophers have written, except that the author dumbs it down to a low-brow dude-bro language that I find pretty hilarious and enjoyable to read.

His bit on Machiavelli's "The Prince", or at least the most important parts of it, is my favorite.
 

teezzy

Banned
I enjoy Camus, and own an unread copy of Sartre's Being and Nothingness which I'm half-convinced I'll tackle eventually

Everything else is a Wikipedia page
 
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