-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Miyamoto: In mainline Zeldas, Link will always be the hero, will consider S spin-offs
- Thread starter axisofweevils
- Start date
Spring-Loaded
Member
Sheik's indisputably a girl obfuscating that she's a girl. People are questioning why that depiction of the character is the only girl character being brought up as a possible star for a spinoff game while the obviously female version of the character is said to not be suitable for a lead role in the main series, unmentioned in discussions of spinoffs.
I'll never understand why people are so passionately upset about this on both sides.
Here is the dealio. Aonuma has now previously stated (during E3 no less) that Link is a male character. The way Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma have been wording anything to do with this conversation has basically always been with the pretense that Link, regardless of what anyone else thinks or desires, is a male and will always be a male. Miyamoto is stating that for main Zelda games, Link will always be in the lead, meaning the lead will always be male (with likely never an option for anyone else in these situations). They also clearly are saying they may use Zelda or other characters as leads in spin offs or side games.
This is what we know. This is what we must accept. This is something that, while arguments comparing to other series don't really hold ground, is something that is what Zelda will always be.
Regardless if you love it or hate it, we ALL HAVE TO ACCEPT IT. You don't have to like it. You can hate some of the excuses (and the initial ones during E3 were pretty bad). But it doesn't matter. THis is the reality we live in. Link is always male. Link will always lead the main games. THere may be side games where females shine.
That is that. Debate it all you want, but there is no more debate over what is "going to happen". We know now. Not only for Breath of the Wild, but all future games. So debating over it to me is silly now. The opportunity is gone. We have to learn to accept Link for who he is, and Zelda games for what they are, instead of what they will never be. And what they are hasn't been a problem for 30 years. I don't see it magically becoming a problem today either.
Here is the dealio. Aonuma has now previously stated (during E3 no less) that Link is a male character. The way Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma have been wording anything to do with this conversation has basically always been with the pretense that Link, regardless of what anyone else thinks or desires, is a male and will always be a male. Miyamoto is stating that for main Zelda games, Link will always be in the lead, meaning the lead will always be male (with likely never an option for anyone else in these situations). They also clearly are saying they may use Zelda or other characters as leads in spin offs or side games.
This is what we know. This is what we must accept. This is something that, while arguments comparing to other series don't really hold ground, is something that is what Zelda will always be.
Regardless if you love it or hate it, we ALL HAVE TO ACCEPT IT. You don't have to like it. You can hate some of the excuses (and the initial ones during E3 were pretty bad). But it doesn't matter. THis is the reality we live in. Link is always male. Link will always lead the main games. THere may be side games where females shine.
That is that. Debate it all you want, but there is no more debate over what is "going to happen". We know now. Not only for Breath of the Wild, but all future games. So debating over it to me is silly now. The opportunity is gone. We have to learn to accept Link for who he is, and Zelda games for what they are, instead of what they will never be. And what they are hasn't been a problem for 30 years. I don't see it magically becoming a problem today either.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Because they're fans of the series and care about the issue.
Do you want discussion about it to stop?
I guess it's a matter of opinion, where we just disagree. Now Samus' change is more about sexualizing her. Shiek not being sexualized != being more masculine (although actually defining a bit of a bound bust and smaller waist could be argued as sexualizing her.)
It's not discussion, it's a huge argument. all I see are a few very angry people in this thread refusing to accept that it's never going to happen and people being riled up on both sides. It's sad.
That's not how it works. I don't have to accept anything. I, as a customer and critic, can criticize and push for more representation for a Zelda game, just as Nintendo can refuse or acknowledge my critique.
They've already refused it.
legacyzero
Banned
I guess i just dont see the problem. I lean towards Jim Sterling on this one. We dont get to dictate what they do creatively with their games. However, what we get to do is criticize them when they do it seriously wrong. I prefer Link to be Link as he is. And it's not like Nintendo hasnt come some length to try and reach a middle ground. They gave us Linkle for instance.
What ISNT acceptable though, is Aonuma's bullshit responses as to why they decided against having a female Link. Literally rolled my eyes. Just come out and say it bruh. "We wanted Link to be a man. That's that." Im ok with that. Of course, the internet will still throw a fit. That's par for the course. If yoy try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.
Would love to see a Zelda focused Adventure, though, being a Tri-Force piece owner and all. And would be happy to see Ninty make Link a female for one of their games.
But im not going to throw a fit, make assumptions, call them sexist etc, because they chose not to. Just dont try to insult my intelegence to explain why you didnt.
What ISNT acceptable though, is Aonuma's bullshit responses as to why they decided against having a female Link. Literally rolled my eyes. Just come out and say it bruh. "We wanted Link to be a man. That's that." Im ok with that. Of course, the internet will still throw a fit. That's par for the course. If yoy try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.
Would love to see a Zelda focused Adventure, though, being a Tri-Force piece owner and all. And would be happy to see Ninty make Link a female for one of their games.
But im not going to throw a fit, make assumptions, call them sexist etc, because they chose not to. Just dont try to insult my intelegence to explain why you didnt.
Doesn't matter, I can keep trying until they listen. They've done it with the BotW when people wanted open world Zelda for years, they listened to opening up same sex options after Tomodachi Life discussion, eventually something's gotta give. Whether now, tomorrow, 10 years, or 100 years.
Again, like in the UK-EU thread, you have an acceptance and defeatist attitude. I don't, I'm someone who never stops until I die. Like I said, I don't have to accept anything, I have nothing to gain nor lose if I do.
I didn't say "only" either. I totally get what you're saying.
The structure of BOTW reflecting Zelda 1 is absolutely nothing like the bastardisation of one of their iconic characters that you desire.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Old Guard can't hold out forever. Now that the argument has gotten this big, they'll have to address it somehow in the future.
Sad thing is, when we finally do get a female Link, she'll probably be based around traditional ideas of femininity and be way less cool than male Link. C'est la vie.
Sad thing is, when we finally do get a female Link, she'll probably be based around traditional ideas of femininity and be way less cool than male Link. C'est la vie.
Spring-Loaded
Member
I'm talking about Samus' bulky armor becoming more sleek and with emphasized hips. That is a part of the ZSS sexualization, but it's still odd.
Brawl Sheik was just a single aberration though. Only the jump from Brawl to 4 is comparable to Samus' armor.
Then you're not reading or not understanding what's being posted in the thread. Wanting to shut down the conversation because it makes you uncomfortable is what's sad.
Bastardisation? Really? A gender option, or a character selection option that lets you choose Link or Linkle, Zelda, Aryll is considered bastardization? Nowhere in the lore does it say that Link can't be a girl, only the creator's new interpretation of "What will Link do" and "the balance of the Triforce" is what's making Link stay the main hero and male. Which frankly is the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever heard. I don't mind if Link is a man, they don't even have to give me a reason as to why Link is a man, but what I do mine is that Nintendo doesn't want any, none whatsoever, female leads in their mainline Zelda series even if it's a reincarnation of the hero in female form. And when the possibility of a spin off is mentioned, they want a woman that's using her male persona as the lead. I do not like that at all.
othersteve
Member
Guys --
I say this lovingly and respectfully, but it isn't going to happen. The reasoning has been spelled out repeatedly already in this thread and likely elsewhere prior. There are too many other "safer" things to "fix" or adjust in the Zelda series than the gender of the protagonist. And convenient though it may be to point at the filmmaking industry as a comparative example, unlike practically all of these movie studios (and Marvel, et al), Nintendo is dealing with one of the only critical properties it possesses in Zelda, amongst merely a handful of others. It is too risky a move without much of a clear payoff to be considered a rational possibility.
It's really that simple. This isn't a matter of closemindedness, or refusal to incorporate newer social norms, or neglect for a growing constituency amongst gamer demographics. It is simply a matter of business, and it just plain makes absolutely zero sense for the alteration to be seriously considered. Nintendo's job is not social activism; it is to profit.
Want to campaign for greater representation of females amongst videogame heroes? Campaign for a new IP from Nintendo if Samus isn't already doing it for you. ;-)
I say this lovingly and respectfully, but it isn't going to happen. The reasoning has been spelled out repeatedly already in this thread and likely elsewhere prior. There are too many other "safer" things to "fix" or adjust in the Zelda series than the gender of the protagonist. And convenient though it may be to point at the filmmaking industry as a comparative example, unlike practically all of these movie studios (and Marvel, et al), Nintendo is dealing with one of the only critical properties it possesses in Zelda, amongst merely a handful of others. It is too risky a move without much of a clear payoff to be considered a rational possibility.
It's really that simple. This isn't a matter of closemindedness, or refusal to incorporate newer social norms, or neglect for a growing constituency amongst gamer demographics. It is simply a matter of business, and it just plain makes absolutely zero sense for the alteration to be seriously considered. Nintendo's job is not social activism; it is to profit.
Want to campaign for greater representation of females amongst videogame heroes? Campaign for a new IP from Nintendo if Samus isn't already doing it for you. ;-)
James Scott
Banned
I've been in this thread probably longer than I should
but I'd like to say I'd be perfectly fine with FemLink. I'd be a bit apprehensive towards a character creation/gender select toggle, but FemLink could be cool.
I am, however, against trying to force it. You've made your voice be heard, they've acknowledged it several times but they want to keep Link as is.
On the flip side, stuff like this:
lol
I am, however, against trying to force it. You've made your voice be heard, they've acknowledged it several times but they want to keep Link as is.
On the flip side, stuff like this:
is a gross exaggeration.
They did address it. They said Link is male, and I'm sure whoever takes over for them will continue that tradition.
Spring-Loaded
Member
You calling anyone out for being angry is Rich!
It would be since the Zelda series has been moving away from Link using magic as of late. I'd love to see Link focus on his sword and shield combat while the other option is Zelda's more magical combat abilities. A game like that would be pretty neat.
legacyzero
Banned
To me, that sounds like another middle ground option that wohld be awesome. But fron what I keep reading, it just isnt acceptable to some. Im bot entirely sure why...
Spring-Loaded
Member
That would be great. Nintendo's already proven they can make decent co-op + single player games, and even if it was single only, it would be a good way of being magic use back into the series.
You mean Miyamoto and Aonuma?
othersteve
Member
Yes; now this is perhaps something that could be considered. It may or may not fly, but it's at least a rational proposition which does not involve an upheaval of a character that so many fans already love as he is.
James Scott
Banned
Breath of the Wild has a strong focus on magic.
Aonuma expressed interest in a multiplayer Zelda game after BoTW, so maybe.
Well in this game at least he has science helping him out rather than magic!
(It's probably magic science.)
For the fans, I can see the arguments. Zelda is royalty and Link is a common village boy. The way the world would react to her would be very different than with Link. That said, as I said earlier, you can easily have it set in a situation like BotW, where the Royal Family could be disbanded and Hyrule is in decay. Zelda can be a simple commoner trying to reclaim the kingdom from Ganon instead of waiting for a hero to do it.
For Aonuma and Miyamoto... "What would Link do", "Balance of the Triforce"
Outside the fire rod and elemental arrows I saw in the demo, everything seems to be technology.
Lord_Byron28
Member
I believe in like the first 5 minutes of the treehouse that Nintendo released at E3, Aonuma specifically said that unlike other Zelda titles there wasn't magic and instead is focused on technology. Granted their technology may as well just be magic.
DeviousAngel
Member
Even Link is confused 
In all seriousness, I would love a Zelda where you could have:
1) Back and forth Link and Zelda sections a la paper mario, while Link makes his way to Ganon's Castle, and Zelda sneaks around Ganon's Castle and telepathically warns Link about traps etc.
And/Or
2) Sections where you escort Zelda and you solve puzzles and fight together through traditional combat and magic (kinda like the end sequence in OoT but with elements from WW where you can switch control between Link and another character).
In all seriousness, I would love a Zelda where you could have:
1) Back and forth Link and Zelda sections a la paper mario, while Link makes his way to Ganon's Castle, and Zelda sneaks around Ganon's Castle and telepathically warns Link about traps etc.
And/Or
2) Sections where you escort Zelda and you solve puzzles and fight together through traditional combat and magic (kinda like the end sequence in OoT but with elements from WW where you can switch control between Link and another character).
Spring-Loaded
Member
it has a greater focus on magic than TP or SS, but players aren't using stuff like Din's Fire in this one. More like magical tools rather than what we see Zelda do in the SSB series, or Mystics in Dragon's Dogma. Basic combat in BotW looks to be physical combat still.
legacyzero
Banned
Totally agree. Woupd love to see a situation like that.
And yeah, those responses are shit hahaha
Gotdatmoney
Member
I don't have a problem with people wanting this, I just don't understand why the obsession is with a female link specifically. Because the vast bulk of characters written in any media do not have any actual need to be their assigned gebder besides the creators saying "I want this to be a guy" or "I really like that female design, let's use it". Your gender is a defining characteristic of who you are, the same way your race or your culture are. There is no actual "reason" why Link has to be male but he was molded into a male identity so they continue to prefer portraying that identity as male. I don't really get the issue with that. It's literally one of those things where it is the way it is actually is about the only answer you can give.
Obviously aa we go forward games will work to be more inclusive ans have different characters and portrayals and that is great. I like the way Guaccamelee did it with the characters both male and female playable but integrated for story reasons. But I think its different to complain about establishrd characters being established characters. And having a paper thin personality or motiivation doesnt mean a character hasnt been defined for the audience. Chrono is an example of a character who has been defined as a set of traits that now are established lore both by the games and also the media. Link is the same thing.
Obviously aa we go forward games will work to be more inclusive ans have different characters and portrayals and that is great. I like the way Guaccamelee did it with the characters both male and female playable but integrated for story reasons. But I think its different to complain about establishrd characters being established characters. And having a paper thin personality or motiivation doesnt mean a character hasnt been defined for the audience. Chrono is an example of a character who has been defined as a set of traits that now are established lore both by the games and also the media. Link is the same thing.
James Scott
Banned
Gameplay-wise, it's just magic. There are also the fire and ice arrows even if they don't use a magic meter.
Brawl
SSB4
The latter is the the more recent version in SSB, and Sheik looks more like a guy there.
Thanks for the comparison. I'm not crazy about either in the same way I wouldn't want any Smash character models dropped right into a 3D adventure game without modification. SSB characters feel generic and plain to me. I want an evolution of HW Sheik in her own game. She and Impa, my favorite character in the game. Fantastic designs.
For those catching up, this wasn't a discussion about Sheik's gender, as we all know she's a woman. Some feel Sheik is too safe an option for a female lead spin-off because Nintendo may play it conservative and convey the character as male to the lay person, thus undermining the milestone in the franchise. I suggested an even more improved Hyrule Warriors Sheik, undeniably a woman kicking ass, would be a perfect solution.
He's only confused because he is a bot.
It wouldn't be an upheaval to have Link be female. They could still be the same character with the same outfit, hairstyle, mannerisms, personality, story role and even the same character model in many cases. You would really only need to change the voice and make slight visual alterations. The character would still be instantly recognizable as Link at a glance and have the same function.
Furthermore I really don't see how an option to select Link's gender would be an upheaval at all considering that you could still play as the same old male Link you're used to with no differences at all. What could you possibly be losing when other people have the choice to experience the character slightly different from how you do?
While many fans may love Link as he already is there are also many female fans who have a deep and longtime desire to see Link reflect our own gender. Our desires for the character and our interpretation of who the character is are just valid as any other fans.
Brawl
SSB4
The latter is the the more recent version in SSB, and Sheik looks more like a guy there.
I don't think your average Westerner would see either of those models and come to the conclusion that is a guy.
I realize this is a game forum full of 30+ year olds, so the amount of exposure to Japanese character designs and anime is high, but people are far more likely to confuse an effeminate Japanese male lead as being a woman than this scenario.
othersteve
Member
Again, this isn't a question of the validity or legitimacy of fan requests or desires. However, it is a question of intellectual property and the closely-regarded image of the characters Nintendo recognizes as central to their business' success. While it's true that an option to have Link as a female is merely an option, and that the player can still choose to play Link as a male, the question still remains of return on investment and possible damage to the consistency of Link's image moving forward. What shall become of him in the next Smash Bros. game, for instance? Shall they strive to include both male and female Link there, too, much as they felt the need to do with Wind Waker Link? And how about the other Nintendo properties, such as Mario and Luigi? Shall they also consider female counterparts to those characters if requested, and undertake the same challenges thereafter as a result of their giving into fan requests?
It just simply does not make sense to cater to such a small constituency of gamers when most others (including so many female Zelda fans) are already satisfied enough. The cost of professionally implementing such an option -- and the repercussions across other future titles as a result of the implementation -- could just as easily be redirected to other, more clearly beneficial means for the franchise. I understand that this is a desire of some, but ultimately, the female Link request is a pipe dream which seems to ignore the struggles of business in managing its most critical IP.
The request has been voiced. Nintendo is abundantly aware of the desire of this constituency to play as female Link. Personally, I find it rather disconcerting myself that Link is a blonde, when I, myself, am a brunette. Perhaps the next request should be for Nintendo to accommodate customized hair and eye colors for Link, or perhaps even height and weight parameters, since some gamers likely are a bit heavier and shorter than he is depicted. How can they picture themselves in his shoes if his build does not more closely match that of these oppressed individuals? But at which point is Link no longer identifiable as Link? At which point do such customizations lead to the dilution of this critical, ever-valuable intellectual property with which so many people already find themselves comfortable?
Clearly, appealing to everyone in every situation is both inefficient and potentially counterproductive. Nintendo, as well as many other companies, seem to comprehend this.
A Link to the Past
Banned
As for talk of Metroid Other M being bad and awful, yeah, that's true, but it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. For better or worse, that's something that a long-standing veteran of Metroid thought was important to have.
The reason why a genderswap of Wonder Woman exists is because there is a genderswap universe, it wasn't "for the sake" of it. I also don't see how it's less appealing to have a character said to be a representative character for players to be able to be a woman than it is to have a male version of a feminist superhero.
The reason why a genderswap of Wonder Woman exists is because there is a genderswap universe, it wasn't "for the sake" of it. I also don't see how it's less appealing to have a character said to be a representative character for players to be able to be a woman than it is to have a male version of a feminist superhero.
You know, even though Nintendo has made it clear there's no chance of it happening, it doesn't mean it isn't going to happen anyway in time....via mods and homebrew.
There's already a full game patch of Zelda 1 and 3 where you play as Zelda and save Link. I've just had a look at romhacking.net and even today there's new patches for playing as Zelda in Minish Cap and a gender neutral overhaul for Wind Waker.
Oh and just to be absolutely clear, I have a daughter who loves playing games. But she has one strict rule - she will only play games where you can be a princess. So I can sympathise with the people who want such a thing...but Nintendo have said no. It's not happening. There's a time where you just gotta man up and move on.
There's already a full game patch of Zelda 1 and 3 where you play as Zelda and save Link. I've just had a look at romhacking.net and even today there's new patches for playing as Zelda in Minish Cap and a gender neutral overhaul for Wind Waker.
Oh and just to be absolutely clear, I have a daughter who loves playing games. But she has one strict rule - she will only play games where you can be a princess. So I can sympathise with the people who want such a thing...but Nintendo have said no. It's not happening. There's a time where you just gotta man up and move on.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I could argue the same thing for the people that wanted a male character in the Metroid Prime games. I could also argue that few female characters or characters in general would be changed if they were gender swapped, so I really don't see why you're clutching so strongly to the idea in your first sentence.
Nonsense. The lore doesn't outright state it can't happen so it must happen. /s
Likewise nothing will ever be a good enough compromise, it must involve Link because "reasons."
What exactly is wrong with that quote?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Did you let her play Hyrule Warriors at least?
Also given 3D World lets you play both as Peach and Rosalina (granted, SMB2/USA set a super early precedent) after decades of a similar 'Doesn't Mario always have to save the Princess?' developer mentality. I don't fault people for thinking a similar change could happen in another Miyamoto-made franchise.
sixteen-bit
Member
pretty good video criticizing Nintendo's reasoning Link is male
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t-QiJI3TwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t-QiJI3TwU
Spring-Loaded
Member
Yeah, and in the wake of the comments about Zelda not being fit for lead roles, Aounuma/Miyamoto bringing up only Sheik in discussions of spinoffs with female leads only further suggests they think the adventuring/action isn't suitable for normal Zelda unless she's disguised as Sheik, appearing androgynous/male.
Just started watching this thanks for sharing it.
balgajo
Member
I can understand the reasoning. Zelda always represented royalty. As such she couldn't involve herself in filth activities without using a disguise.
Modern Sheik design don't even try to look like a man. She desguised as a man in Ocarina to fool Ganondorf. A powerful woman walking around could raise suspect about her being Zelda, who Ganondorf was searching for.
Eff me, his theory at the end makes so much sense. I did wonder about the right-handedness.
Aonuma redeemed?
Gender select?