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[Elixist]

Pirates are basically free advertising! What a twist!

im saying you increase your web of influence. lets say greg pirates the game, tells ten friends maybe 3 of them buy the game they tell ten people etc. im not saying its right, but your web of influence might be smaller if greg doesnt pirate the game. look at dragons dogma, the pirates got the buzz going from the early leak. its something to think about

 

[jmga]

This is why stuff like Denuvo is fantastic, and hopefully it will lead to even better DRM in the future.

Hopefully it won't.

JC3 MP devs have already complained about the DRM being a pain in the ass for modding.

Also, JC3 sales haven't been that great.

Still no study shows a relationship between piracy and sales, in spite of what you can think.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Seems like this became a PC hating thread, it's time to bail out.

 

[Freeman76]

Only on PC presumably.
Hopefully PS4 sales are good

Yeah hopefully. I do feel for the dude, it must be highly aggravating spending 7 years on a masterpiece only to have it swiped by some scrotums. I was on the fence about paying £30 and i am so glad i did, this dude deserves my money as this game has really been an experience so far. I often think Blow is a genius for these puzzles, and then i think he is a fuck bag when i dont get one haha.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.

It's an excellent game. Worth every penny. And the pricing argument holds no water these days with how rapidly prices drop, and with sales, and bundles, and whatnot.

The pirates are freeloading arseholes, no two ways about it.

A bigger problem is it's not easy to find on the PS Store. Front page advertising would help. I had to search for it, if I wasn't aware of the game from Gaf, I would have never known about it let alone buy it.

When I bought it yesterday, it was right there taking up the majority of space on the front page.

 

[a very cute dog]

If a game doesn't meet your value proposition, wait for a sale, don't pirate. And don't whine about pricing.

This is really the most reasonable option. If you're going to do it, do it, but don't try to justify it.

 

[Rising_Hei]

Pirating is like drugs, who tend to do this it will use any excuse even if them all are bullshit.

 

[noshten]

I will tell you people one thing that would blow your mind

In a lot of countries Piracy is not a crime - unless you plan to distribute pirated copy's.

I've not played the Witness, but to me it sounds like there is simply not as much of a demographic for the game at the current price point on both the PC and PS4. Blaming piracy for this won't change that, if Blow had different expectations and obviously misread the market and is blaming piracy for underwhelming sales.

 

[Steel]

Seems like this became a PC hating thread, it's time to bail out.

Starting?

This is on page 1:

When companies delay the PC release, and release on both consoles first, I wonder if that is an attempt to curb piracy. I wonder if Blow would have been better off releasing on PS4/XB1 first, then delaying the PC/Mobile releases.

The hilarious thing about this quote is that it's not selling any better on PS4.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I've not played the Witness, but to me it sounds like there is simply not as much of a demographic for the game at the current price point on both the PC and PS4. Blaming piracy for this won't change that, if Blow had different expectations and obviously misread the market and is blaming piracy for underwhelming sales.

I wish I could understand why people are assuming that this piece is about underwhelming sales of The Witness. Blow isn't out there hat in hand stating that the bank is about to foreclose on his house because the game bombed and if pirates had bought it he'd be fine. High piracy numbers don't mean that nobody is buying your game. In fact, it's often the contrary (note: Do not read this as commentary that I'm saying piracy is good).

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Hopefully it won't.

JC3 MP devs have already complained about the DRM being a pain in the ass for modding.

Also, JC3 sales haven't been that great.

Still no study shows a relationship between piracy and sales, in spite of what you can think.

It doesn't even matter if piracy effects sales. People shouldn't be pirating things anyway.

 

[Movalpolos]

im saying you increase your web of influence. lets say greg pirates the game, tells ten friends maybe 3 of them buy the game they tell ten people etc. im not saying its right, but your web of influence might be smaller if greg doesnt pirate the game. look at dragons dogma, the pirates got the buzz going from the early leak. its something to think about

Dragon's Dogma? Really using that as an example? That game came out a few years ago.
Are you really attributing the success of that game on Steam to pirates?

 

[Noobcraft]

According to the release stream, The Witness budget is around 6 million dollars.

SteamSpy shows sales somewhere in the 23k+ range last time I checked. And who knows if all of these were bought from the Steam store.

Man, really scared about him and his team - this is shitty.

So the break even is ~200k copies sold? That doesn't sound unreasonable.

 

[giant_frying_pan]

Why is this thread 33 pages?

It was posted in "Gaming Discussion"

Discussion.

(Also, it's 17 pages).

 

[Steel]

So the break even is ~200k copies sold? That doesn't sound unreasonable.

It's worth noting that steamspy numbers are wildly innaccurate within 3 days of release. Like, I've seen games that sold greater than 100k in one day as 23k for the first 3 days.

 

[Tesseract]

Pirating is like drugs, who tend to do this it will use any excuse even if them all are bullshit.

come on man, that's just nonsense

 

[derExperte]

...aand that's PC for you. Whenever you see people arguing over price point for Rainbow Six Siege being MP only or The Witness for god knows what, its clear that a whole side of gaming has been brought up feeling entitled by penny bundles and sales, unable to feel value. Just like on mobile.

Can confirm, not one console gamer ever has claimed that Siege or Witness are too expensive for them, the value discussions about Evolve or Titanfall were 100% whiny PC dudes, no console gamer waits for sales, no one has ever uttered the words 'I'll wait for PS+'.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

My nan has played Candy Crush for hundreds of hours and she's barely spent a pound on it.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. The fact that some games are F2P instantly makes every other flat-fee game worthless? What?

Here's your answer as to why this thread is so long: Jon Blow sent out two casual tweets of "hey, my game is being pirated a lot! Please don't do that!" and people with a bajillion agendas are using them to further their own causes because Blow already has a reputation built up around him. Complaining about piracy because the price is too high (you wouldn't be complaining about price if you didn't want the game, guys). Complaining about how PC is an inherently evil platform or whatever. Complaining about Blow being "pretentious." Complaining about puzzle games being "worth" inherently less than other genres.

Here is the real story: The Witness is a game that had a ton of labor put into it - eight years' worth, in fact - and the entire profits of Braid as its budget. Complaining that a game with a bevy of content isn't cheap just because it's in a certain genre or because its team is a certain size - I don't have many regrets saying that line of thinking is stone cold stupid. Blow made a pair of tweets saying "please don't pirate my game if you could" and he set off a powder keg, resulting in a 33-page thread where people try and use this innocuous, polite request as an excuse to complain about grievances they already had.

 

[Rising_Hei]

I will tell you people one thing that would blow your mind

In a lot of countries Piracy is not a crime - unless you plan to distribute pirated copy's.

I've not played the Witness, but to me it sounds like there is simply not as much of a demographic for the game at the current price point on both the PC and PS4. Blaming piracy for this won't change that, if Blow had different expectations and obviously misread the market and is blaming piracy for underwhelming sales.

To be honest, it shouldn't be treated as a crime for those that download anything, but those that upload it should be prosecuted if they are gaining something out of it. I did some research here in Spain, and 99 % of the uploaders (of hot stuff that's new) are only a bunch of greedy bastards, these people should feel the weight of the law, but not the rest, imo.
I just with Blow decided to use that new kind of DRM that's less intrusive and more effective.

 

[CyberPunked]

Isn't this under the assumption that, torrent downloads = lost sales, which it doesn't. Can't assume people who pirate games would have purchased them in the first place.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

According to the release stream, The Witness budget is around 6 million dollars.

SteamSpy shows sales somewhere in the 23k+ range last time I checked. And who knows if all of these were bought from the Steam store.

Man, really scared about him and his team - this is shitty.

I wouldn't be scared just yet. This is an indie puzzle game with a relatively high price point for an indie game. This isn't some AAAA game where 90% of sales (or whatever, I'm slightly exaggerating there) are expected to come in the first week due to the media blitz of ads everywhere to get everyone on the hype train for the day one blockbuster event.

And I'd assume that most of them are coming through Steam. I'm not exactly sure, but cursory glances through third-party re-sellers aren't turning up any opportunity to buy Steam keys for this game.

 

[Elixist]

Dragon's Dogma? Really using that as an example? That game came out a few years ago.
Are you really attributing the success of that game on Steam to pirates?

i said the buzz, some/a bit of the early success yes.

 

[TCKaos]

I wish I could understand why people are assuming that this piece is about underwhelming sales of The Witness. Blow isn't out there hat in hand stating that the bank is about to foreclose on his house because the game bombed and if pirates had bought it he'd be fine. High piracy numbers don't mean that nobody is buying your game. In fact, it's often the contrary (note: Do not read this as commentary that I'm saying piracy is good).

There's the parallel narrative that since pirates are potential consumers, that pirated copies are directly attributable to sales lost. Similarly, the initial thread was about how Jonathan Blow seemed extremely discouraged about how many pirates there were, to the point that it would affect the likelihood of a sequel or new game from him, implying that there were so many pirates that Jonathan Blow was losing enough revenue that he wouldn't be able to make new games.

It has since evolved into a cyclical debate with new posters that haven't read any of the posts yet, people justifiably outraged at the rate the game appears to be pirated at, and people who are either purposefully or ignorantly assuming that the assertion that the $40 price point had a role to play in the rate of piracy is justification of the act of piracy or somehow condones the act rather than explaining a potential motivation.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

I wouldn't be scared just yet. This is an indie puzzle game with a relatively high price point for an indie game. This isn't some AAAA game where 90% of sales (or whatever, I'm slightly exaggerating there) are expected to come in the first week due to the media blitz of ads everywhere to get everyone on the hype train for the day one blockbuster event.

And I'd assume that most of them are coming through Steam. I'm not exactly sure, but cursory glances through third-party re-sellers aren't turning up any opportunity to buy Steam keys for this game.

Another thing to note: Steamspy usually takes about 3 full days to properly populate figures and can sometimes take up to a week to do so. I wouldn't put my faith in those figures until sometime next week because it might be that there are a lot of unaccounted for sales as of right now

 

[U2NUMB]

I am not a big fan of Blow but just because someone would not have bought a game does not make it right for them to steal it... fuck you for feeling entitled just because you can.

And who gives 2 shits what the price is... in no way does that make it right for you to just pay nothing for any piece of work. I dont see how that argument works in any other form of commerce in the world. "I took it cause trust me.. I would never have paid that price for anyways so no reason to be upset"

I hope new software makes this sort of thing nearly impossible...

 

[Kurt Russell]

Another thing to note: Steamspy usually takes about 3 full days to properly populate figures and can sometimes take up to a week to do so. I wouldn't put my faith in those figures until sometime next week because it might be that there are a lot of unaccounted for sales as of right now

It's easier to just jump and say really well thought things like "why release it on PC, they are all pirates, release it on PS4 only and you will succeed"

I mean, this thread is full of that crap. The reality of the situation is that Blow himself said that the game's sales are more or less the same on both platforms. People are blowing this WAY out of proportion.

 

[GatticusFinch]

Call when every game uses this.

Call me when GOG goes DRM only.

Call me when Humble Bundle goes DRM only.

Call me when every game uses the exact same uncrackable technology and we will have this talk.

Until then the whole "b-b-b-but the FUTURE OF DRM!" talk completely evades the current situation and isn't a reflection of NOW. It isn't representative of the current landscape at all. Cracking games now is a lot more difficult than an .exe - you are correct, but you are neglecting how quickly crackers can amass to defeat a DRM vs back in the day when pirating meant swapping floppies. Shit travels instantly now due to ease of availability and there are a lot more pirates. Its 2016.

Let's see...

Dev's choice to have a DRM-free version.
Dev's choice to sell on GOG.
Dev's choice to sell on Humble (what does it being DRM only matter? They sell Steam keys).
Dev's choice to not use Denuvo.

Why would I take all these piracy complaints seriously when people do nothing in their power to try to stop it? Hearing Blow bitch about piracy when he is selling a DRM-free version is mind numbing. "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas!"

 

[derExperte]

Another thing to note: Steamspy usually takes about 3 full days to properly populate figures and can sometimes take up to a week to do so. I wouldn't put my faith in those figures until sometime next week because it might be that there are a lot of unaccounted for sales as of right now

That and there weren't any pre-order or day-1 incentives. No discount, no nothing, so those interested but skeptical aren't in any hurry to buy the game asap while they're getting flooded with high profile releases. Give it some time.

 

[noshten]

I wish I could understand why people are assuming that this piece is about underwhelming sales of The Witness. Blow isn't out there hat in hand stating that the bank is about to foreclose on his house because the game bombed and if pirates had bought it he'd be fine. High piracy numbers don't mean that nobody is buying your game. In fact, it's often the contrary (note: Do not read this as commentary that I'm saying piracy is good).

I know that, I'm simply tired of people trying to correlate high pirate rates with lost sales.
Especially devs who should know better.

 

[Spirited]

Talos principle sold 75k under the first 4 months according to steamspy

In April (4 month's after release) it was at 70K according to Wayback Machine

https://web.archive.org/web/20150407100401/http://steamspy.com/app/257510

These sales are quite good actually, 30k after only 3 days.
Even Blow confirms this by saying this

So at least could we stop with this narrative of "Well he should just not release it on PC".

 

[hydrophilic attack]

come on man, that's just nonsense

What a convincing rebuttal

 

[Shake Appeal]

The Witness is a bargain at twice the price, but price points aren't a valid argument for piracy.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Hearing Blow bitch about piracy when he is selling a DRM-free version is mind numbing. "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas!"

Yeah, he's really "bitching" up a storm. smh. I mean, the least you could do is read the tweet that the thread's about?

 

[Tesseract]

What a convincing rebuttal

it's the ramblings of a mad man, what more can you say

 

[GatticusFinch]

Yeah, he's really "bitching" up a storm. smh. I mean, the least you could do is read the tweet that the thread's about?

What do you want to call it? Whining? Why else would he post that on Twitter?

 

[Already Torn]

This. I scrolled through all the menus and could not find it. I eventually had to do a search for it to get it to pop up. If I did not read GAF I would not have noticed the game came out.

It's on the front page in NA!

 

[luchifer]

Let's see...

Dev's choice to have a DRM-free version.
Dev's choice to sell on GOG.
Dev's choice to sell on Humble (what does it being DRM only matter? They sell Steam keys).
Dev's choice to not use Denuvo.

Why would I take all these piracy complaints seriously when people do nothing in their power to try to stop it? Hearing Blow bitch about piracy when he is selling a DRM-free version is mind numbing. "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas!"

Isnt Denuvo so expensive, only triple AAA can afford it? And, on the other hand: Is it your fault if your house get robbed because you didnt bought a camera surveillance system with electric fences?

 

[nekkid]

I'd be interested in what percentage of those who pirated would have bought the game if pirating it wasn't possible. I'm guessing it's low, with the net result fairly inconsequential.

Not saying it's right, mind you.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Hey Mr. Blow.

1 pirated != 1 sale lost.

Exactly this. Maybe he didn't even mean it like this. Blow seems like a smart dude. It could have just been a "hey guys, it would be cool if you paid me, too!" kind of comment.

I doubt they would have paid $30 or even $20. I really don't think pirates give a fuck about the price

You're probably right. People pirate stuff that can be had for pennies during a Steam sale after all. People who pirate aren't even willing to buy DRM-free copies for less than $10 on GOG, etc.

A highly pirated game at least indicates that there's a lot of buzz around it.

Are there any examples of games that were massively pirated but didn't also sell quite well?

 

[Spirited]

What do you want to call it? Whining? Why else would he post that on Twitter?

Probably disheartened, I know I would be if I saw something I worked on for 8 years being pirated.

 

[CosmicQueso]

What do you want to call it? Whining? Why else would he post that on Twitter?

Because he's disappointed with seeing it? But then he comes right back and says things look good. So he's certainly not "bitching" about it nor is he throwing his hands in the air in desperation or frustration. Your post was ridiculous.

 

[roadrunn3r]

The amount of "don't release the game on PC" comments on this thread is stupidly high. Not gonna comment on the idiocy of such statements but it's predictable this thread would go this way.

 

[Gryph]

What do you want to call it? Whining? Why else would he post that on Twitter?

Because he made a thing that took him serious artistic effort and people are stealing it?

Is he not supposed to be annoyed by this? What is it about this rather polite expression of dissatisfaction that ruffles so many feathers here?

 

[Grinchy]

Why is this thread 33 pages?

Because you haven't switched to 100ppp.

 

[Atraveller]

Probably disheartened, I know I would be if I saw something I worked on for 8 years being pirated.

Pirates pirate, he has been in the industry long enough to know that.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

it's the ramblings of a mad man, what more can you say

So what are the excuses to pirate which are not bullshit?

 

[CosmicQueso]

Pirates pirate, he has been in the industry long enough to know that.

So the guy can't still be disappointed by it?

WTF am I reading in this thread today?

 

[Spirited]

Pirates pirate, he has been in the industry long enough to know that.

Yeah that I can't argue with, but him being dissapointed about it on twitter shouldn't lead to what this thread has become.
I just think he might be more vocal on twitter than some other indie devs might be which leads to stuff like this.

 

[ksan]

Yeah, if you don't understand how the market works and how you should price your games it's only your fault to be honest.
Consumers have already gotten enough shit from the media market.

 

[joecanada]

The modern day Lars Ulrich.

Lol came here thinking of that south park episode. " this is p Diddy. his daughter wanted a dolphins shaped swimming pool for her birthday but because you pirated his music now she'll have to settle for a regular shitty swimming pool"