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[Pathfinder]

Lying, moron or simply misguided aside, a company allowing anyone to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on jpegs is predatory. There's no value to any of this stuff outside of its original purchase, you're buying pictures you can't resell/trade/return.

If there is sufficient warning in place specifically to avoid accidental purchases, then it is NOT predatory. At that point, the company is simply offering you digital goods for your cash. It is completely voluntary.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Mistakes were made. THEIR mistakes, not Microsoft's.

 

[oneils]

I'm starting to think some of these gambling style microtransactions should be regulated as gambling. Microtransactions are fine, in general. If you want to buy this player for your lineup, or this cosmetic, or extra play time - ok.

But selling packs with random items or keys to chests that have random items seems like gambling to me. Maybe gaming regulators should be looking into this.

 

[NeOak]

On the positive side $8000 CDN is only about $6.50 US right now.

Best replies in this thread lmao

 

[Polioliolio]

Why are gamers so gungho to throw blame on people not as savvy as themselves?

This is fucking ridiculous. If you pay some 100 dollars in the game you should just be given everything. No game content is worth that much, Jesus.

Even if the people spending money on this stuff were aware of what they were doing, that doesn't change how crooked and evil these game design tactics are. Fuck microtransactions forever. I'm confident you can make interesting content without tying it to microtransactions, but the more everyone gets cozy with the idea of having to pay for extra content, the more brainwashed you've all become.

It's terrible. Think of all your favorite games of all time. How many of them pull bullshit like this? It's predatory, it takes advantage of impulse and addiction.. it's worse than gambling, alcohol, and drugs, because you can rack up this enormous bill without leaving the home, all disguised as a video game, which no matter how savvy you lot are, the general public doesn't really understand.

 

[Matty77]

Personally I have no problem with microtransactions getting regulated. The fact you can just spend infinite amounts of money on worthless crap in the games is absurd.

This stuff happens way too often for it to be hand-waved off with "LOL bad parenting".

I was talking about this specific situation not micro transactions or mistake buying as a whole.

 

[Reebot]

Lying, moron or simply misguided aside, a company allowing anyone to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on jpegs is predatory. There's no value to any of this stuff outside of its original purchase, you're buying pictures you can't resell/trade/return.

But that's true of all digital media, ever. Following that to its conclusion, the sale of digital entertainment is inherently predatory, as is the sale of admission to any kind of experience - which I'm sure you don't believe.

If we want to allow digital distribution of games, or even games' existence, we have to acknowledge an important role for personal restraint and responsibility. Otherwise, these products - video games in generally - can't be sold.

 

[MrBenchmark]

Damn I'd have a heart attack. My son asks permission just today when his assassin creed DLC was going to go over his gift card by 1.32. Wow!

 

[Pathfinder]

It's terrible. Think of all your favorite games of all time. How many of them pull bullshit like this? It's predatory, it takes advantage of impulse and addiction.. it's worse than gambling, alcohol, and drugs, because you can rack up this enormous bill without leaving the home, all disguised as a video game, which no matter how savvy you lot are, the general public doesn't really understand.

You know you can gamble on the Internet from the comfort of your own home now.

 

[TheHolyTurnip]

If there is sufficient warning in place specifically to avoid accidental purchases, then it is NOT predatory. At that point, the company is simply offering you digital goods for your cash. It is completely voluntary.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Mistakes were made. THEIR mistakes, not Microsoft's.

It doesn't matter if it's accidental or on purpose, why would they allow anyone to spend such an absurd amount on these things in such a small amount of time? The mobile market has the same problem, with people spending away entire savings and checks to feed their compulsions or addictions on something that has NO VALUE. That's the real problem here, none of this stuff had any value at all. I reiterate, they're PICTURES you can't resell/trade.

These companies are setting up systems that cater to whales, to people with problems that are easy to prey on.

 

[Alienfan]

Lying, moron or simply misguided aside, a company allowing anyone to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on jpegs is predatory. There's no value to any of this stuff outside of its original purchase, you're buying pictures you can't resell/trade/return.

How's that any different from plotting down $8000 in an arcade machine over time? Mirroring my previous comment, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.You can literally spend copious amounts on any product in the world.
Also, it's not like there's one $8000 transaction for the trading cards, we are talking about hundreds of individual purchases. Yes having a credit card attached to the account does make it easier, but lets not pretend that there aren't parental/security controls the Dad could have used. He was just an idiot, and should take full responsibility for knowingly leaving his credit card attached to his son's Xbox account

 

[JHoNNy1OoO]

I hope stuff like this continues to happen because it is the only way we'll get any type of regulation for Micro-transactions in video games or apps. Shit has already been out of control. Now just more and more people are making it public.

When there is an abnormal increase in spending on an account that doesn't regularly spend $100's of dollars it should at the very least have to make contact with the owner through text, email, or voice. Until there is confirmation that purchase shouldn't be allowed to happen. Then these "mistakes" can't ever happen. Of course the companies seeing a profit out of this don't want that because their entire business model revolves around impulse purchases.

 

[wingedarcher7]

And I thought the $50 price tag on the Battlefront DLC was bad. For this, you might as well go to an actual FIFA game..or four.

 

[Syriel]

Also with physical goods you have a high chance of getting a refund for anything unopened/unused, not to mention the ability to resell it you can't go that route. Digital goods are just "You bought it, it now has no value, you're welcome."

Also with physical goods I could trade my 10 crappy guys for someone's 1 good guy. The fact that you can do that should separate the idea of digital and physical for people. I can even buy the specific card I need online for a higher price.

Unopened packs would? Mint condition rare cards I understand, but not sure why anyone would pay a lot for unopened packs, unless they're of a rare printing or something.

I guess the difference is the reselling, you can keep a physical card in mint condition and sell it then, or wait years and sell for more. These digital cards the only real option (unless some sort of trading system is in place, idk) would be to sell your XBL/PSN account to someone.

Lying, moron or simply misguided aside, a company allowing anyone to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on jpegs is predatory. There's no value to any of this stuff outside of its original purchase, you're buying pictures you can't resell/trade/return.

The FIFA cards can be bought and sold via the in-game auction house.

http://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Fifa13UT

http://www.gamezebo.com/2015/10/01/fifa-16-ultimate-team-tips-cheats-strategies/

https://help.ea.com/en/article/fifa-16-auction-house-transaction-fee/

And the coins have real world value as all of the MMO money trading sites have taken to buying and selling them.

This is, in part, why FIFA purchases on compromised PS3 and X360 accounts were so common. The purchased items could be liquidated for real money.

As far as I can tell, these fifa packs are nothing more than digital versions of physical trading cards that have been around for decades.

I don't know what the hobby is like now, but back in the day certain packs of unopened cards would sell for crazy amounts.... like hundreds of dollars.

Individual player cards can command high values on the secondary market. Someone posted earlier in the thread that a Messi card was worth 850,000 FIFA coins which is just over $100 USD at current coin exchange rates (it looks like 100k is roughly $12 based on a quick Google search) on the secondary market if my math is right.

 

[quesalupa]

What the hell is wrong with that son? Hopefully this doesn't mess the dad's life up too much.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

But that's true of all digital media, ever. Following that to its conclusion, the sale of digital entertainment is inherently predatory, as is the sale of admission to any kind of experience - which I'm sure you don't believe.

If we want to allow digital distribution of games, or even games' existence, we have to acknowledge an important role for personal restraint and responsibility. Otherwise, these products - video games in generally - can't be sold.

You've clearly never seen anyone get cut off at a bar so as to avoid harm to themselves or others. Business continues unabated, every time.

 

[Chillz0r]

When there is an abnormal increase in spending on an account that doesn't regularly spend $100's of dollars it should at the very least have to make contact with the owner through text, email, or voice. Until there is confirmation that purchase shouldn't be allowed to happen. Then these "mistakes" can't ever happen. Of course the companies seeing a profit out of this don't want that because their entire business model revolves around impulse purchases.

This, there needs to be an OS level daily purchase cap or something, say 100$ by default. Or even a weekly one. If you want to spend more you have to go through secondary authorizations.

Also people should REALLY get sms or even email notifications for transactions, even if it costs a small fee (i think its 0.25€ for me)... it can prevent these situations, especially if you give access to children.

 

[grimmiq]

Individual player cards can command high values on the secondary market. Someone posted earlier in the thread that a Messi card was worth 850,000 FIFA coins which is just over $100 USD at current coin exchange rates (it looks like 100k is roughly $12 based on a quick Google search) on the secondary market if my math is right.

Then the argument that these are useless and valueless purchases and shouldn't be allowed is invalid to me.

 

[QaaQer]

I implore you to explain to us how that kind of mentality is so different than someone sitting in front of a slot machine for hours upon hours, endlessly pouring their money in for a chance to win the jackpot.

Here are some pathological gamblers talking about how they felt while playing slots: vid. Do chronic gamers feel the same? Idk.

 

[Senhua]

"There will never be another Electronics Arts microtransactions game — or any microtransactions game — in my home."

Fixed it.

 

[bootski]

There is a huge difference here between Magic the Gathering and FIFA. Soccer is the biggest sport in the world and this is a video game based on the biggest league of said sport. EA the biggest gaming company in the world. They know exactly what they are doing and idiots like this dad and his kid are the targets. There needs to be rules in place to stop people who are busy/irresponsible/lazy/addicted from getting themselves into these situations.

The fact that these packs give you a bunch of random players when you buy them should be enough for everyone to see that EA are evil as fuck!! What the hell are they doing making this content randomized? Why can't someone pay $100 and get all the players? Absolutely ridiculous people that are sticking up for this type of shady shit! EA are fucking scum. I know this perfectly well becase the only EA games I have bought since the Bullfrog days are the Dead Space series and even then I feel dirty about it even though the games were incredible. This is a bad company preying on exactly this type of behaviour.

explain the difference between the Magic system and the FIFA Ultimate Team system then. the only difference i see is that one is digital and the other physical. the size of said companies have absolutely nothing to do with it. "evil EA" oh boo hoo. EA has done a lot of scummy shit in their day but implementing a trading card game is not one of them.

 

[gogosox82]

$8,000 is a lot of money for fifa cards. Not really buying that the kid didn't know what he was buying but I do think the kid didn't have a full grasp of what it means to own a credit card which is natural since he's 17. Really feel bad for both the son and dad.

 

[NolbertoS]

Firstly, what kind of parent would give their kid a credit card, secondly if you do give a limit, make it like $200 max limit so he can't max it out. Can't believe, the kid is saying it's not his fault, man my dad would've told me to get a job and pay back all that money. Kids these days have it wayyyyy to easy and think plead ignorance to make the problem go away.

 

[Reebot]

You've clearly never seen anyone get cut off at a bar so as to avoid harm to themselves or others. Business continues unabated, every time.

...?

You've completely missed the point.

 

[Clockwork5]

What the fuck was this kids credit limit? Man, my parents would have never trusted me with $8000 of their money when I was that age. And for good reason.

 

[Teeth]

You've clearly never seen anyone get cut off at a bar so as to avoid harm to themselves or others. Business continues unabated, every time.

You can't buy your FIFA digital cards to death.

Buying FIFA digital cards doesn't decrease your ability to judge whether you can or should buy more FIFA cards or punch the person next to you.

 

[random25]

What the fuck was this kids credit limit? Man, my parents would have never trusted me with $8000 of their money when I was that age. And for good reason.

It's a little more nuanced than that. For example, we don't know how long the son has had the credit card for emergencies? He may have had it for a few years without maxing it on non-emergency purchases.

We have to accept opportunities like this are addictive, and businesses have removed normal-societal responsibility with faceless transactions. The "are you sure?" text preceding a purchase is pointless when it's an internalized conversation for the purchaser, compared to a real interaction between two people - a shop owner and a purchaser.

While I agree with you there, giving a credit card to someone for "emergency purposes" means that there must be measures to ensure that the card is used really for emergency purposes since the dad will never know where the credit is spent until the bill shocks him. Like a manageable credit limit for the son? I just don't see a scenario where a 17 year old will spend as much as 8000 bucks in a short period for emergency. I symphathize with the dad, after all he isn't the one who enjoyed those cards and he's the one going to pay it up, but he is responsible in ensuring that his son will have no ways to mess up his credit card.

 

[Primethius]

17 year old?

Can't even feel sorry for the dad if he bought the kid's story.

 

[Clockwork5]

You've clearly never seen anyone get cut off at a bar so as to avoid harm to themselves or others. Business continues unabated, every time.

I've never seen anyone cut off at GameStop for buying too many amibos.

 

[Polioliolio]

You know you can gamble on the Internet from the comfort of your own home now.

Not as easily as when it pops up in a video game targeted to kids even.

But even if it was, it's terribly shitty. I don't know why people can't stop excusing these anti consumer practices.

 

[Teeth]

Not as easily as when it pops up in a video game targeted to kids even.

But even if it was, it's terribly shitty. I don't know why people can't stop excusing these anti consumer practices.

It's anti-consumer to not prevent people from buying things they choose to buy?

 

[TheHolyTurnip]

How's that any different from plotting down $8000 in an arcade machine over time? Mirroring my previous comment, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.You can literally spend copious amounts on any product in the world.
Also, it's not like there's one $8000 transaction for the trading cards, we are talking about hundreds of individual purchases. Yes having a credit card attached to the account does make it easier, but lets not pretend that there aren't parental/security controls the Dad could have used. He was just an idiot, and should take full responsibility for knowingly leaving his credit card attached to his son's Xbox account

$8000 over the course of numerous months/years when what you're putting your money small amounts of money to play the skill based game is completely different than $8000 over the course of a couple of days on some cards. As for the Dad being an idiot... The card was given to his son for emergency use for a convenience store (made it sound like it was their family business). He wasn't an idiot, he just trusted his son. I guess people should never trust.

The FIFA cards can be bought and sold via the in-game auction house...

I had no clue and completely recant all my statements made about selling/trading. I'm honestly really glad that there's some system in place there to recoup some of the money if you want to. I still think there should be limits to how much you can buy in a day/month but that makes the whole system much more fair.

 

[Clockwork5]

It's anti-consumer to not prevent people from buying things they choose to buy?

Or is it anti consumer to make digital purchases hassle free...

 

[Pathfinder]

Not as easily as when it pops up in a video game targeted to kids even.

But even if it was, it's terribly shitty. I don't know why people can't stop excusing these anti consumer practices.

Is there anything else you feel companies like Microsoft should be protecting us from, that's part of our daily lives? Overspending, as a concern, is on its way to being taken care of so we can skip that one.

Maybe our local supermarkets should start monitoring how much food we buy, and stop us when we've bought enough.

 

[Clockwork5]

What the hell is wrong with that son? Hopefully this doesn't mess the dad's life up too much.

I know if I did this at 17 years old I would be the one paying off that card.

 

[Teeth]

Or is it anti consumer to make digital purchases hassle free...

I mean, to be honest, there could be a fine line between "hassle free" and deceptively obfuscated.

In a theoretical marketplace that is tied to a system that requires some sort of payment identification/validation (like a paypal account or credit card number), it could theoretically not follow common navigation standards and have you buy something by just clicking on it (instead of, say, going to an information page).

So, it's possible.

Clarity is the key. But that follows across the board.

If EA wants to sell you an infinite sum of worthless ASCII characters for some ceiling-less amount of money, but it advertises it clearly as such, that's fine.

I know if I did this at 17 years old I would be the one paying off that card.

Same. My parents would have forked it over immediately, but I would have been working it off for the next year(s).

In fact, when I was about 11, I accidentally knocked a copy of Ghouls & Ghosts off of a shelf at a friend's house. The cartridge broke internally and couldn't be played anymore. My parents forked over the $80 to buy a new one and I had to pay them back in installments over the course of the next year by working odd jobs and having my $3/week allowance garnished.

It taught me that actions have very real consequences.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

It's pretty clear what happened here.

Kid did a really selfish thing. Father found out. Obviously, he can't afford the bill. So him and his son are spinning up this story in the media in the hopes that an exception can be made for them. It will probably work, as these sorts of purchases are simply too lucrative; Microsoft is better off letting it all rock than trying to fight them in court over $8k.

But in reality, either the kid, the father, or both signed some agreement that said straight-up that these purchases are all completely non-refundable. IIRC you have to agree to it every single time you even make the purchase, too, even if you decide not to read the agreement.

I can't agree with any gambling analogies because this stuff is pretty much worthless. I think selling ultimate team cards ended (or did it?) when EA put in a gold cap on card auctions. AFAIK the best you can do at this point is sell an account that has XYZ FUT cards, but I don't know how much of a thing that is. Never really looked into it.

Betting on fantasy football brackets? That's "gambling," even though you're basically throwing money away unless you're one of the top 1% of people who actually take it seriously enough to do well at it. Your reward for putting in money is more money, if you're successful. This ultimate team stuff rewards you with nothing but ultimate team stuff for use in the game. The value is in the eye of the purchaser.

By the way, $8k is far from the most an individual has spent on this sort of thing. I've heard stories of people spending upwards of six figures.

Edit: Wait a second. What kind of dad hands his kid a credit card with a limit of over $8000 for use in "emergencies?" Jesus christ.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Back in the day, the arcades near my house used to fill to the brim on the weekends with children pumping their allowance into arcade machines, quarter by quarter.

We could easily spend $10 a day on games like Willow, The Simpsons, TMNT, X-Men... not because we'd never played them before, but because that's about how much it took sometimes to finish the game and get some satisfaction out of it. Some of those old games were rigged to be unfairly difficult at times, so no matter how good we were, eventually we would get the dreaded Game Over / Insert Coin screen. Then we would put in another quarter and keep going, hoping for the best.

I implore you to explain to us how that kind of mentality is so different than someone sitting in front of a slot machine for hours upon hours, endlessly pouring their money in for a chance to win the jackpot.

Ones a game of skill, the other is a game of chance.

 

[Pathfinder]

Ones a game of skill, the other is a game of chance.

You're correct, but the want to conquer it, and the requirement of money, is still present in both.

It's that same kind of itch in your head that pushes you to keep going, often until you are completely out of money.

 

[Teeth]

Ones a game of skill, the other is a game of chance.

One is a game of chance to make money.

The other is simply a money sink.

 

[Yagharek]

Games with gambling/random purchases should have a mandatory setting for customers to define automatic warnings for when they reach their own defined upper limits of spending.

Until such time as they do, they should be banned from sale as they are predatory gambling scams.

 

[Pathfinder]

Games with gambling/random purchases should have a mandatory setting for customers to define automatic warnings for when they reach their own defined upper limits of spending.

Isn't that your bank or credit card company's responsibility to help you with your spending limits?

 

[Clockwork5]

I mean, to be honest, there could be a fine line between "hassle free" and deceptively obfuscated.

In a theoretical marketplace that is tied to a system that requires some sort of payment identification/validation (like a paypal account or credit card number), it could theoretically not follow common navigation standards and have you buy something by just clicking on it (instead of, say, going to an information page).

So, it's possible.

Clarity is the key. But that follows across the board.

If EA wants to sell you an infinite sum of worthless ASCII characters for some ceiling-less amount of money, but it advertises it clearly as such, that's fine.

You have a point.

But I don't believe I have ever questioned if I am spending money or not on a digital product. It's always been clear in my experience.

 

[Yagharek]

Isn't that your bank or credit card company's responsibility to help you with your spending limits?

Only when you max out. Poker machines can be set to alert you when you reach a limit, depending on state regulations. There's no reason aside from unwillingness to do so, as to why this can't be done here.

 

[Strangelove77]

17 years old? Haha, what an idiot.

 

[danowat]

But did he have a good team afterwards? You'd imagine $8K would buy you a decent one!

 

[Pathfinder]

Only when you max out. Poker machines can be set to alert you when you reach a limit, depending on state regulations. There's no reason aside from unwillingness to do so, as to why this can't be done here.

We as a species do not need more coddling... it's slowly making us dumb and dependent on outside forces to help us run our own lives.

There's lessons to be learned in life about credit cards, money, children, financial responsibility, and overspending.

 

[Clockwork5]

Back in the day, the arcades near my house used to fill to the brim on the weekends with children pumping their allowance into arcade machines, quarter by quarter.

We could easily spend $10 a day on games like Willow, The Simpsons, TMNT, X-Men... not because we'd never played them before, but because that's about how much it took sometimes to finish the game and get some satisfaction out of it. Some of those old games were rigged to be unfairly difficult at times, so no matter how good we were, eventually we would get the dreaded Game Over / Insert Coin screen. Then we would put in another quarter and keep going, hoping for the best.

I implore you to explain to us how that kind of mentality is so different than someone sitting in front of a slot machine for hours upon hours, endlessly pouring their money in for a chance to win the jackpot.

Well first of all I never got a shit ton of money for beating TMNT.

Money. That is how the mentality is different. The reward is money.

 

[TheBritishBear]

It's still extremely sad and depressing that games have these sorts of micro-transactions in place where kids can accrue large amount of debt. Sure, the responsibility lies with the family, but something is seriously wrong where games that are easily accessible to children and in cases, are designed for children, contain these sorts of micro transactions.

Honestly, we should be holding publishers more accountable, even if the parents should be responsible. Feels like we're just excusing them.

 

[Teeth]

Only when you max out. Poker machines can be set to alert you when you reach a limit, depending on state regulations. There's no reason aside from unwillingness to do so, as to why this can't be done here.

Should there be a mandatory warning or spending limits enforced on real life baseball cards? What about Magic cards or Pokemon cards? Those are directly marketed towards children.

It's still extremely sad and depressing that games have these sorts of micro-transactions in place where kids can accrue large amount of debt. Sure, the responsibility lies with the family, but something is seriously wrong where games that are easily accessible to children and in cases, are designed for children, contain these sorts of micro transactions.

Honestly, we should be holding publishers more accountable, even if the parents should be responsible. Feels like we're just excusing them.

A child only has the money to spend that their parents gave them.

No child has a credit card.

 

[TheOohChild]

His son is a treacherous little bastard