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Lets talk: The future of gaming(cloud streaming) #SeriousStuff

TheCloser

Banned
I know this topic has been discussed to death several times before but i'm starting to view it from a different angle. A lot of people have come to accept the notion that "everything will be in the cloud" but i beg to differ. Before we get started though, i will post a youtube video that got me thinking about this topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BU0PkOtzcg

In this video ReviewTechUSA discusses the issues associated with cloud gaming and provides his though on tangible software vs "permission to stream the game". Give this video a watch as i think its interesting.

Anyway, let get started.

There are several reasons why i do not believe in a future where every thing is streamed but the most important reason to me is that it makes absolutely no sense. In the case of movies, we are dealing with static data as in a video that is streamed to you and the interaction is minimal.

Here are the reasons why it makes absolutely no sense:

1) Cost
2) Computational Power and Developer Requirements
3) Tangible vs Intangible software


Cost:

When i look at cost, i look at it from the service provider's pov. The investment into the hardware required is monumental. It is not a static cost but one that is always increasing. I view consoles as a way of passing on some of the associated risks of the console business to consumers. There is still a great risk when releasing new consoles but if a console is successful, it will pay for itself. The best examples of this are the PS1, PS2 and the Wii.

A lot of people seem to believe that streaming is the future. In the video above, the guy is sad that everything will be lost and the end of conventional gaming is over. Like i said, there are several aspects to this discussion that have been overlooked. Lets take a look at PS Now, it is a service designed to stream ps1, ps2 and ps3 games to consumers through various pieces of hardware that they may already possess. It has been an expensive investment for sony and they will be looking to make a serious profit on it. I look at the cloud streaming of games as a dead end. Why should a company spend that much money in investing into a service that people can cancel their subscription? If you purchase a console, you can not unsubscribe. You have already made the investment. You can choose to sell your console if you like but the company has already received the initial payment. Purchasing a console is an investment into the platform's future. The greater the sales, the more likely it is to be successful. In the case of the cloud, if you invest billions into the infrastructure and nobody uses it, you are screwed. You can try to market the service and drop the price of entry but if people don't want it, you are left to bear the burden of the whole cost. You could use the hardware for something else and but you more than likely don't need the hardware you purchased.

Another thing we seem to ignore is competition in the market place. Competition only reduces the prices consumers have to pay and that in turn will lead to a longer wait time for you ROI. People seem to assume that publishers will all line up and use the streaming service/services provided by the companies like sony or microsoft. What is stopping a company like EA from launching their own service like they did with Origin?


Just before i wrap up, we have been working under the assumption that the computational budget for games is capped. Games continue to need more power to evolve. This means that operating the service is a continuous investment. A lot of the advantages of console development will be lost. My guess is that a VM's will run on the servers and no game will have direct access to the hardware itself increasing the overhead and decreasing the performance.

Anyway that is all i have to say on cost.

Computational Power and Developer Requirements:

I briefly touched on this at the end of my last paragraph but lets look at this in detail. Again PS now does not require too much computational power for ps1 and ps2 games but emulating ps3 games either requires the cell processor itself or emulation of the cell processor. Right now, the average(not gaf average but worldwide average) computer cannot emulate the cell. We all saw what happened when the ps3/360 generation ran on for too long. Sales dipped like crazy and are just recovering due to the launch of new hardware. Do we envision a future where graphics peak and there is no need to invest in new hardware? Will the industry become stagnant like the movie industry? Who knows but in the near future, i believe that games will continue to need more power as they grow in size. This will require a continual investment into hardware with no guarantee of a return. I really don't have much else to say on this topic so please chime in with your opinions.

Tangible vs Intangible software:

This is the most important part of the equation to me. We had a period where some claimed that digital was the future and then the new consoles came out. People had to download 49gb of data for nba 2k14 and it took almost a day for some people. At times they lost connection to Sony's servers. People always point to the iphone as proof that people will pay intangible software but they still own that software in a way. It is stored directly on the phone and can be accessed at anytime. The prices of digital games are also low because companies recognize that consumers are extremely sensitive to prices when it comes to digital content. We can still rationalize paying $60 for a digital game because it is stored on your harddrive. What happens when all the data is stored in the cloud and all you get is a video feed? Can you still rationalize paying $60 for a game. I certainly can't. In fact, i can't rationalize paying $1 for PS Now because is sony goes belly up, so does my money.

It is kinda similar to office 365 for me. Office 365 is a microsoft office subscription for 365 days. I can't envision a period in my life where i won't need microsoft office so why would i pay for office 365. Microsoft word 2003 files still work on office 2010 so why on earth would i subscribe for one year if i could purchase a version of office and use it for 7 years? It seems very pointless to me. This is why i cannot rationalize spending money on a cloud streaming service like PS Now.

I know a lot of people will point to netflix but lets look at it this way. Netflix is an option but physical media exists and will always exist. You can also choose to download you movies to your computer or transfer them from your computer to other devices. Netflix works because it provides you access to a vast library of movies for a low monthly price. If most of the movie on netflix were released again in a physical format, they would make little to no money. Netflix is an avenue for movie producers/publishers to continue to make some sort of profit from old movies. Games are very different from movies because they are interactive entertainment. People still play cod 4 every day and that game is OLD. I don't know any person who has watched the same old movie everyday for the last 5 years. People would call them crazy. It would be pointless because after the first year, you would know the whole script by heart.

Conclusion:

I have made a lot of assumptions here but feel free to chime in because i really would like to know what people think about this. I firmly believe that streaming games is a dead end. It won't be massive and might be an expensive mistake for sony. It is only good for old games and people will get tired of it after a while. If sony was smart, they would use gaikai to tie together, music unlimited and video unlimited to launch a competitor to netlflix. Onlive didn't catch on, Gaikai didn't catch on and neither will PS Now.

Disclaimer:

I do not hate sony but i only mention them because they are the only Console manufacturer exploring this option. I do own a ps4 and feel free to disregard my opinion.
 
...Why should a company spend that much money in investing into a service that people can cancel their subscription?...
From a pure operations standpoint running a server farm and infrastructure has to be a lot leaner than manufacturing physical goods and shipping them all over the world at a loss to your division. So yeah. The move to cloud based computing architecture will completely phase out the concept of "generation" there will just be games that look more impressive than others. That rollercoaster shooter is gonna look as good as avatar, but that weird RPG will only look as good as Delgo.
 
From a pure operations standpoint running a server farm and infrastructure has to be a lot leaner than manufacturing physical goods and shipping them all over the world at a loss to your division. So yeah. The move to cloud based computing architecture will completely phase out the concept of "generation" there will just be games that look more impressive than others. That rollercoaster shooter is gonna look as good as avatar, but that weird RPG will only look as good as Delgo.

Investing in that infrastructure also results in a loss for you division. In fact, i would argue that the loss for that initial investment would be greater than a loss for a traditional console launch.
 
I don't think thats true, but even if it is it seems to me that investment is much smarter and would go a lot further than manufacturing literal plastic garbage hoping poor saps will buy it to play a game.

Anyway you cut it going forward remote gaming is gonna be cheaper for the companies licensing your right to experience the content they produce. But theres a lot of stuff on the horizon. Once we move away from discrete graphics and onto complete SoCs for everything and then unify all memory, etc etc. Lots of stuff is happening, I personally am not convinced the cloud is the future of everything. I think local processing will just be too cheap not to be used when it can. It'll probably be some weird hybrid future. I don't know. We'll stream all of our non VR games and use dedicated hardware for VR.
 
Excellent post OP and I agree completely. I would also add that the coming VR revolution is simply not possible with streaming tech. Low latency is the most critical factor in VR, and local computing power is critical for this.
 
I really don't think it's inevitable as the only solution. Dedicated hardware you buy and own outright is here to stay.

Whether or not Xbox and Playstation as we know them survive the next 10 years is a different question.
 
I want my games to be available offline, and I think I'm not the only one. It will happen, but I don't think it will be a standard.

Not really against the idea. Imagine a world where in one click, you can play any video game you want, with no compromise.

However, there are several problems that must be resolved first like infrastructure, dealing with online lag, cost, etc...
 
Its nice to hear various responses. This gen, we've seen manufacturers steer clear of subsidizing console costs. The BOM for both the ps4 and xbox one are pretty low. The next console refresh will likely have consoles with 10 teraflops or more and that's in 5-6 years. It will be cheap to get a gpu with that much power. They'll probably put the console together for the same price as the ps4/xbox one and sell it for 500ish again. Its good too because both companies will likely make money from the get go so i can't wait to see the next refresh. I agree with the poster that said "dedicated hardware will just be to cheap to ignore". I don't really see a streaming only future but thats just me.
 
I dont think you know much about the cloud and server computing if you think that it's not profitable. Microsoft and Intel have both made a killing off their server farms to the point where even Dell and Toshiba have considered moving from PC to servers and the cloud.
 
I dont think you know much about the cloud and server computing if you think that it's not profitable. Microsoft and Intel have both made a killing off their server farms to the point where even Dell and Toshiba have considered moving from PC to servers and the cloud.

I'm not saying it can't be profitable but you don't seem to understand how server farms work. Its one thing to rent out time slices on your server farm to companies to do some rendering. Its another thing to have 200 million people playing different games(multiplayer or not) on your servers over the internet. Very different process.
 
Cloud technology introduces a significant amount of latency in even the most ideal conditions, so it shouldn't become the be-all-end-all solution for gaming in the future.
 
I would actually like to see some of the hardware or storefront companies push for more local clouds.

Kind of like how Western Digital has started selling small and compact "MyCloud" Boxes.

Nvidia and Valve have already started on that via their in home streaming initiatives which I am thrilled to see. I'd love to see that concept expanded across further distances, being at that point, I could still have the benefits of streaming a game, but I would not have to worry outside of my ISP going under or hardware failure(which would still be a problem mind you).

Plus if they ever needed reason to better justify compute pricing and focus, "playing your game on the go" would be a pretty decent thing again just IMO.

I don't mind the cloud, but when it comes to games among other things, I'd rather have and deal with my own cloud if at all possible.
 
The dawn of VR devices 8and their potential rise in popularity) is the best fucking thing that could happen to gaming even if you don't give a damn about it, if anything simply because it's pushing a lot of cool tech (low latency, higher refresh rates, better panels, etc) and actively discouraging "gaming by streaming" and similar crap.
 
I think it's an unfortunate future but an inevitable one, so I don't have much to add... I'm sorry.

agreed not real keen on this myself. there are so many issues with it WW (too many to mention and ones people know about)
 
I'm not saying it can't be profitable but you don't seem to understand how server farms work. Its one thing to rent out time slices on your server farm to companies to do some rendering. Its another thing to have 200 million people playing different games(multiplayer or not) on your servers over the internet. Very different process.
Well when you put it like that they do sound different. But in a "cloud" future I'm pretty sure the platform owners would rent their servers out to publishers. These computing servers could, depending on traffic though, end up being cheaper for publishers in the long run than developing for hardware and the usual barriers that hardware brings. It could also be cheaper for the publishers tahn creating their own servers for their games, like I said, depends on what the MS and Sony want to charge though.

Just to make it clear though, I do not want a cloud future, I like hardware and owning my games.

Edit: by the way, I wouldn't personally look that much into PS Now, it seems like more of an experiment from Sony than an actual initiative.
 
The dawn of VR devices 8and their potential rise in popularity) is the best fucking thing that could happen to gaming even if you don't give a damn about it, if anything simply because it's pushing a lot of cool tech (low latency, higher refresh rates, better panels, etc) and actively discouraging "gaming by streaming" and similar crap.

I'm a fan of VR, its interesting tech but i don't know if its just a fad or if its here to stay. Will they make a wireless version? The current concept is way to bulky. It needs to look like snowboarding goggles to be a success. Its also going to be mad expensive so i only see it being on pc.
 
I don't think thats true, but even if it is it seems to me that investment is much smarter and would go a lot further than manufacturing literal plastic garbage hoping poor saps will buy it to play a game.

Anyway you cut it going forward remote gaming is gonna be cheaper for the companies licensing your right to experience the content they produce. But theres a lot of stuff on the horizon. Once we move away from discrete graphics and onto complete SoCs for everything and then unify all memory, etc etc. Lots of stuff is happening, I personally am not convinced the cloud is the future of everything. I think local processing will just be too cheap not to be used when it can. It'll probably be some weird hybrid future. I don't know. We'll stream all of our non VR games and use dedicated hardware for VR.

If VR takes off then it'll require dedicated hardware I the home and may delay/prevent any move to cloud gaming as the only method. Even without that, I think we at least have one more generation of hardware (PS5 etc) as the infrastructure simply isn't there to support all current console users (caps, capacity, bandwidth,latency), plus the compute performance per client is astronomical vs current cloud models supporting PC, which are primarily file storage and database driven stuff.
 
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