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Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Liberal Imagination

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Bernie Sanders and the Liberal Imagination
What is doable and what is morally correct are not always the same things.

First off, I feel like I should say that title and tagline alone are powerful enough statements to rival the similarly-intended, relatively older "if it's so important that Bernie Sanders marched with MLK, then why has nobody heard of him" quote that stemmed from a separate article. As someone who's known as a quantum-tier hyper-left pan-liberal piece of shit on this very board, I can say with at least a modicum of certainty that I can resonate - somewhat - with Bernie's ideals. That being said, they're just that: ideals. Not too many frontrunners get their foot in the door telling America they're going to turn the nation on its capitalist head and uninstitutionalize Wall Street, because, uh, hey, that's a great idea, but it's probably going to require a concentrated effort spanning multiple presidencies - multiple presidents - to achieve, which is where Bernie's pie-in-the-sky ideologies often lose a lot of people.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/bernie-sanders-liberal-imagination/425022/

Coates had this run through The Atlantic earlier tonight and I got a chance to read through it. Rather than spoil it (it's an excellent read altogether and isn't especially long), I'll just quote the parts of the article that are meta-highlighted and add in some additional fluff:

On classism versus racism and their applications / proposed solutions in the United States:
Mainstream liberal policy proposes to address this [institutionally racial] divide without actually targeting it, to solve a problem through category error.
Click to expand...

On politically-correct "divisiveness," or controversial empathy in a progressive fashion:
So “divisive” was Abraham Lincoln’s embrace of abolition that it got him shot in the head.

...

The point is that anti-racism is always divisive. A left radicalism that makes Clintonism its standard for anti-racism—fully knowing it could never do such a thing in the realm of labor, for instance—has embraced evasion.
Click to expand...

The first narrative domino in breaking down Bernie's idealist proposals:
If we can be inspired to directly address class in such radical ways, why should we allow our imaginative powers end there?
Click to expand...

I can safely say Coates' narrative is the first time this presidential run that I could unironically say "he's just saying what we're all thinking!" without subconsciously inducing vomiting. While what he's saying isn't anything especially new - especially among black liberals / moderates, mind you - it's all covered in a very cogent, expletive fashion such that I'll probably be linking it in future discussions.

Or, I mean, some posters could just not read the OP beyond "Bernie Sanders" and say "bububu Hillary Clinton did it first!", considering that's, y'know, half of the whole fucking point he's making when it comes to trying to deflect criticisms aimed at Bernie.
 
ether

Coates shutting down this fraud, hopefully once and for all. The sooner we get rid of opportunistic politicians like Bernie from our political system, the sooner we can start making real change and real progress.
 
"Bernie's deflection of the race question with talk of class-based policies (which most certainly haven't erased racism in Europe) means he isn't really a radical"

I agree
 
Suite Pee said:
"Bernie's deflection of the race question with talk of class-based policies (which most certainly haven't erased racism in Europe) means he isn't really a radical"

I agree
Click to expand...
That's one of my biggest problems with this guy. He acts like he's a "radical" or a revolutionary of some kind. Dude, just admit you're a regular candidate, representing the white majority like all the others (possibly with the exception of Hillary). If he was that honest, maybe I'd consider him as an option. Maybe. But to perpetuate and represent this stupid anti-establishment image is insulting to me as a voter.
 
Battersea Power Station said:
That's one of my biggest problems with this guy. He acts like he's a "radical" or a revolutionary of some kind. Dude, just admit you're a regular candidate, representing the white majority like all the others (possibly with the exception of Hillary). If he was that honest, maybe I'd consider him as an option. Maybe. But to perpetuate and represent this stupid anti-establishment image is insulting to me as a voter.
Click to expand...

eh, i think it's relative. on many issues sanders is definitely radical compared to much of the american public and certainly everyone else he's running against.

on race and plenty of other issues (guns among them) definitely not.
 
aeolist said:
eh, i think it's relative. on many issues sanders is definitely radical compared to much of the american public and certainly everyone else he's running against.

on race and plenty of other issues (guns among them) definitely not.
Click to expand...
That's my point. If he wants to be a radical, he's gotta be radical across the board. Otherwise, why would I pick him over one of the better candidates? It's just silly.
 
Battersea Power Station said:
That's my point. If he wants to be a radical, he's gotta be radical across the board. Otherwise, why would I pick him over one of the better candidates? It's just silly.
Click to expand...
Radical across the board means different things. For instance it might be radical to nationalize the auto industry, but you're not going to find anybody running with his level of support that will campaign on that.
 
aeolist said:
eh, i think it's relative. on many issues sanders is definitely radical compared to much of the american public and certainly everyone else he's running against.

on race and plenty of other issues (guns among them) definitely not.
Click to expand...

He's radical in the context of American politics alone. Nothing he proposes (outside of universal healthcare, but that's a repair job on our own fuckup tying it to employment) actually would transform the relationship between labor and capital. In that context his position on reparations does not seem inconsistent.

Bernie is not a radical. Just more progressive than every other candidate running
 
I think this is hardly surprising. Bernie holds many positions I agree with, but his answer to systemic racism in America has always been through economic reforms and class-based approaches to public policy. It's clear he actually believes this is the best way to address racial oppression. Economic issues are his focus and the lens through which he views our nation's problems. He has always advanced a very white perspective on change in America.
 
I saw this and his other Sanders article the other day. The more I read his stuff the more I feel he's a very conventional thinker, close to someone like Cornell West with how he writes about all-or-nothing politics which ostensibly is against the status quo and the establishment but in practice protects it. I imagine had he been more prominent back in 2007/2008, he would've been railing against Obama pretty hard.
 
This was a good peice. None of these candidates have strong positions on race.

It's good the Overton window was brought up because that's how every politician operates. You would need a shift in the greater body politic to enact a change as divisive as reparations. We have seen this kind of change before and I believe we can see it again, but not in this election cycle. It would require some politicians to possibly sacrifice their careers and that those are rare individuals indeed.

Still, I'm a socialist, and while I'm concerned greatly with matters of race I am also concerned greatly with matters of class. I will vote for whoever the most liberal nominee is and continue to press them to to be more divisive on matters of race.
 
I'm not a Bernie supporter. I think most of his platform is not realistic.

But this pushback he's been getting from the left is bizarre.

I'm chalking it up to his poor communication and messaging skills.

Maybe the current American Left is more middle than it thinks.
 
Battersea Power Station said:
That's one of my biggest problems with this guy. He acts like he's a "radical" or a revolutionary of some kind. Dude, just admit you're a regular candidate, representing the white majority like all the others (possibly with the exception of Hillary). If he was that honest, maybe I'd consider him as an option. Maybe. But to perpetuate and represent this stupid anti-establishment image is insulting to me as a voter.
Click to expand...

Well it's obviously his best strategy. I don't blame him for it. When you play a game, you play to win. The problem is that a lot of his supporters eat it up and pretend like he's not a politician. I mean, what?
 
Battersea Power Station said:
ether

Coates shutting down this fraud, hopefully once and for all. The sooner we get rid of opportunistic politicians like Bernie from our political system, the sooner we can start making real change and real progress.
Click to expand...

Given that there's exactly 1 independent politician (2 if you still count Bernie as I) in Congress, i fail to see why they'd be the ones cockblocking "real change and real progress".
 
Battersea Power Station said:
That's one of my biggest problems with this guy. He acts like he's a "radical" or a revolutionary of some kind. Dude, just admit you're a regular candidate, representing the white majority like all the others (possibly with the exception of Hillary). If he was that honest, maybe I'd consider him as an option. Maybe. But to perpetuate and represent this stupid anti-establishment image is insulting to me as a voter.
Click to expand...

Everyone has their sales pitch. In a discussion on climate change yesterday, it was pointed out that Republican candidates are well aware it's a real phenomenon; they just make tactical statements designed to appeal to the voters they've decided to target at that point.

I have no opinion or expertise on Sanders beyond that I've heard him say things that resonate with me. Same goes for Corbyn in the UK, and I'm sure the same critique applies too.

Isn't the point that we are supposed to issue a mandate, and the candidate then makes the best they damn well can given the political circumstances they then happen to preside over? What's wrong then with voting from the heart? (Edit: except fear that the majority of others will take a more pragmatic position).
 
Battersea Power Station said:
That's my point. If he wants to be a radical, he's gotta be radical across the board. Otherwise, why would I pick him over one of the better candidates? It's just silly.
Click to expand...

I don't think he does.

He will call out abuses of power where he sees fit. He's campaigning from his perspectives and from his interactions with people throughout his long life.

None of his ambitions are I think are out of the realm of possibility.

-Breaking up banks isn't unreasonable
-Raising Taxes isn't particularly unreasonable
-Expanding Social Security/Keeping it solvent isn't unreasonable
-Universal healthcare isn't even particularly exciting on a global scale


But the powers to be are going to make these objectives very hard to do without a significant (or radical) change in the way our government operates. And it's largely due to big money interests.

He doesn't have to be radical on every single issue there is. He will fight the good fight against powerful interests and will fight injustice when he sees it.

You're probably never going to get your perfect candidate that serves all your views and focuses his/her efforts in the exact manner that you'd do.
 
I do think he has bad advisors. He didn't see this coming and has been caught off guard on race relations twice. But I remember reading something about how he doesn't do internal polling. Basic stuff most politicians do.

I know his platform is an outsider or different but he responded to the question, after the story lingered for a week, by just repeating his platform. Coates wrote about it last week. And he was caught off guard.

How's he going to do in any major election of he keeps not paying attention? This new article was telegraphed by a mile.
 
My issue with Sanders is he's a hopeless idealistic fool. The man cares about the working man, he's just an idealistic fool without a good strategy. He's the kind of man you can trust at your side but, not the man you can trust to lead this country. He's not a leader, he's a follower and his lack of communication makes me wonder how badly he'll flip flop on everything he says.

I won't be fooled again. Sanders is Obama 2.0 but, even more idealistic and with the lack of charisma. If he doesn't flip flop on everything, he'll end up being the GOPs one term presidential puppet and put a conservative into the White House.
 
Bernie does seem to be a...bit out there. Like, being against PP because 'it's part of the establishment' is foolish. Bernie seems to be an idyllic candidate-Listening to what he says, it's as if everything is going to happen once he's elected. Racism and classism will go away, he will shut down the corrupt gubernatorial offices, he'll tax the rich at a just rate, and we'll become liberal over night!...

....this election is a rough one. You have the crazy conservatives, the loony liberals, and the brighest point that everyone can only see being the outcome is Hilary Clinton being elected. She's no Obama, but she's our best shot at not devolving into either the far right or the far left.

shadowsdarknes said:
But the powers to be are going to make these objectives very hard to do without a significant (or radical) change in the way our government operates. And it's largely due to big money interests.
Click to expand...

And this is the biggest issue. Everything Sanders is saying is seemingly sane, in this utopia where the President is Dictator. But the Senate is divided, skewed heavily right currently. How long will it be that way? Time will tell, but hopefully with the madness portrayed by the Conservative candidates will help it skew back left, but Sanders won't make things happen with a snap of his fingers.

And that goes for Trump and his crazy 'We'll kick all dem muslims and kooky mexicans out!' rhetoric that he's pushed.

Clinton is to me, the sanest choice. And that's a great article you posted.
 
I don't agree with Coates' insistence in the article that Hillary Clinton is a moderate. Sure, she takes a moderate position on some issues, but I think that label does a disservice to her overall record.

Other than that, I agree with him one pretty much everything.
 
BreezyLimbo said:
And this is the biggest issue. Everything Sanders is saying is seemingly sane, in this utopia where the President is Dictator. But the Senate is divided, skewed heavily right currently. How long will it be that way? Time will tell, but hopefully with the madness portrayed by the Conservative candidates will help it skew back left, but Sanders won't make things happen with a snap of his fingers.

And that goes for Trump and his crazy 'We'll kick all dem muslims and kooky mexicans out!' rhetoric that he's pushed.

Clinton is to me, the sanest choice. And that's a great article you posted.
Click to expand...

Bernie hasn't really said otherwise. He never said he will fix this country. He has repeatably said he can't do it alone.
He needs the people to vote on all levels of government.
 
I'm curious, can someone point me to a plan for reparations that would actually work? Where everyone who deserves reparations gets it, without causing major racial resentment and increasing the racial divide that is already so significant in this country? Also, an example of another country that managed to give out racial reparations in an effective way would also be helpful, because most of Bernie's ideas are simply Government institutions and policies that have already been tested successfully in dozens of other first world countries.

The thing that makes Bernie radical/revolutionary is that he wants to attempt to bring it to the US where most people believe it is impossible simply due to how fucked up our highly polarized two party system is. (And to be fair to Bernie, he only brings up the radical thing in a sarcastic tone of voice, when he's implying most of his ideas are simply common sense in any other first world country).

shadowsdarknes said:
Bernie hasn't really said otherwise. He never said he will fix this country. He has repeatably said he can't do it alone.
He needs the people to vote on all levels of government.
Click to expand...
He reiterates this point in every one of his speeches, not sure where people are getting the idea that Bernie thinks he can magically get all of his goals done by himself.
 
shadowsdarknes said:
Bernie hasn't really said otherwise. He never said he will fix this country. He has repeatably said he can't do it alone.
He needs the people to vote on all levels of government.
Click to expand...

It's just the way Bernie is coming across off. Like, to someone like me, an average voter, that is how Bernie is coming across off. And the truth is, Bernie can keep asking people to vote on all levels of government, but people won't. It's a pipe dream, unfortunately.
 
BreezyLimbo said:
It's just the way Bernie is coming across off. Like, to someone like me, an average voter, that is how Bernie is coming across off. And the truth is, Bernie can keep asking people to vote on all levels of government, but people won't. It's a pipe dream, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

That's just the way bernie comes across... after been filtered through the media and social machine of our times. Does it actually represent his positions and values accurately?

No clue! Can't see him without the filter!
 
If Bernie were to be elected, the first think I think he'd have to do is push major campaign finance reform. Make televised speech after televised speech asking for a bipartisan agreement to unilaterally disarm. With the anti-establishment sentiment running across both sides of the aisle, it might be feasible. If this were to become a front and center conversation, something could probably be done.
The effects of such a bill if it were to pass would probably take several years to see.
 
Geist- said:
I'm curious, can someone point me to a plan for reparations that would actually work? Where everyone who deserves reparations gets it, without causing major racial resentment and increasing the racial divide that is already so significant in this country?
Click to expand...

As we discussed in the other thread, this would be impossible, because that racial divide is created by the anger of white people at people of color being given the opportunity to succeed and participate in America. So obviously anything that changes that will create more resentment. That doesn't necessarily mean it would be wrong.
 
shadowsdarknes said:
If Bernie were to be elected, the first think I think he'd have to do is push major campaign finance reform. Make televised speech after televised speech asking for a bipartisan agreement to unilaterally disarm. With the anti-establishment sentiment running across both sides of the aisle, it might be feasible. If this were to become a front and center conversation, something could probably be done.
The effects of such a bill if it were to pass would probably take several years to see.
Click to expand...

That's what I hope he does actually, which he alludes to when he says Obama told the public "I'll take it from here" and didn't get much done, implying he would instead keep mobilizing the citizenry to push their politicians to get his policies implemented.

pigeon said:
As we discussed in the other thread, this would be impossible, because that racial divide is created by the anger of white people at people of color being given the opportunity to succeed and participate in America. So obviously anything that changes that will create more resentment. That doesn't necessarily mean it would be wrong.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply it would be wrong either, only that I'm not sure why reparations are being put on the same achievability level of National Healthcare and minimum wage increase, both of which have already been proven to work in several other first world countries. They are all pretty impossible to implement in the US, but at least we have some successful models to point to for the latter ideas.
 
shadowsdarknes said:
Bernie hasn't really said otherwise. He never said he will fix this country. He has repeatably said he can't do it alone.
He needs the people to vote on all levels of government.
Click to expand...

Geist- said:
He reiterates this point in every one of his speeches, not sure where people are getting the idea that Bernie thinks he can magically get all of his goals done by himself.
Click to expand...

But that's just it: Bernie acknowledging that he can't do what he promises alone, and that it'll take a "political revolution" to get it done is tantamount to asking Cinderella's fairy godmother to appear and Bippity Boppity Boo America's political system. It's asking for a miracle.

And honestly, that should be the lesson that everyone takes from the Obama presidency. Obama was a great president, got a lot accomplished. But look at what he got accomplished compared to what he ran on (and TRIED to get accomplished), and it's obvious that we didn't get that Hope and Change. And not because he broke his word, but because he had to deal with the reality of a political system dedicated to blocking his every move.
 
Zaptruder said:
That's just the way bernie comes across... after been filtered through the media and social machine of our times. Does it actually represent his positions and values accurately?

No clue! Can't see him without the filter!
Click to expand...

And do you really think average voters are going to go and look at each candidate through a magnifying glass?
 
entremet said:
I'm not a Bernie supporter. I think most of his platform is not realistic.

But this pushback he's been getting from the left is bizarre.

I'm chalking it up to his poor communication and messaging skills.

Maybe the current American Left is more middle than it thinks.
Click to expand...

Bingo
 
royalan said:
But that's just it: Bernie acknowledging that he can't do what he promises alone, and that it'll take a "political revolution" to get it done is tantamount to asking Cinderella's fairy godmother to appear and Bippity Boppity Boo America's political system. It's asking for a miracle.

And honestly, that should be the lesson that everyone takes from the Obama presidency. Obama was a great president, got a lot accomplished. But look at what he got accomplished compared to what he ran on (and TRIED to get accomplished), and it's obvious that we didn't get that Hope and Change. And not because he broke his word, but because he had to deal with the reality of a political system dedicated to blocking his every move.
Click to expand...

I'd argue a big part of that was not keeping the public engaged when he needed help implementing what he wanted. It's kind of a long shot, but I'm hoping a Sanders presidency will be willing to mobilize the public when he needs to.

But forget that, even if he mirrors the Obama presidency in terms of what he can do, how could that be anything but a net positive for America?
 
royalan said:
But that's just it: Bernie acknowledging that he can't do what he promises alone, and that it'll take a "political revolution" to get it done is tantamount to asking Cinderella's fairy godmother to appear and Bippity Boppity Boo America's political system. It's asking for a miracle.

And honestly, that should be the lesson that everyone takes from the Obama presidency. Obama was a great president, got a lot accomplished. But look at what he got accomplished compared to what he ran on (and TRIED to get accomplished), and it's obvious that we didn't get that Hope and Change. And not because he broke his word, but because he had to deal with the reality of a political system dedicated to blocking his every move.
Click to expand...

Anyone with a slight understanding of how government works knows that Bernie doesn't get to be a dictator and implement these promises.

The obstructionism and gridlock is no secret now, too.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for our President to play the game and get things done through some give and take. To maneuver wherever possible. When it's all said and done, the political process will probably be the same.

Bernie will probably drag his feet and fight the system as much as possible. Less may even get done. 4 years of Bernie can probably chip away at some of the bullshit. But he will probably be very ineffective.

It all depends on what you want.

But if Bernie repeatedly pleads with the public to get behind a major reform, I bet his sincerity will go further than Clinton trying to do the same. People just don't trust her.
 
entremet said:
I'm not a Bernie supporter. I think most of his platform is not realistic.

But this pushback he's been getting from the left is bizarre.

I'm chalking it up to his poor communication and messaging skills.

Maybe the current American Left is more middle than it thinks.
Click to expand...
He's not getting pushback because he's too liberal, at least not from Coates and the non-black, non-male people who question him, the issue has been that he's not as radically liberal as he and his supporters have presented him to be and, as you said, he's a poor communicator.
 
jmood88 said:
He's not getting pushback because he's too liberal, at least not from Coates and the non-black, non-male people who question him, the issue has been that he's not as radically liberal as he and his supporters have presented him to be and, as you said, he's a poor communicator.
Click to expand...

When it comes to everything but his pet issue, I think I agree.
 
jmood88 said:
He's not getting pushback because he's too liberal, at least not from Coates and the non-black, non-male people who question him, the issue has been that he's not as radically liberal as he and his supporters have presented him to be and, as you said, he's a poor communicator.
Click to expand...

Yes it's not all that surprising that the average Bernie supporter thinks he's some sort of radical. Because by the standard of typical American politics, he's about as liberal as they come. But when we examine the full political spectrum, he's not a radical.

Many people on this board understand this full well.

The conventional American right-left scale is not all accurate.
 
shadowsdarknes said:
Yes it's not all that surprising that the average Bernie supporter thinks he's some sort of radical. Because by the standard of typical American politics, he's about as liberal as they come. But when we examine the full political spectrum, he's not a radical.

Many people on this board understand this full well.

The conventional American right-left scale is not all accurate.
Click to expand...

This actually highlights exactly what's wrong with the entire conversation. We're talking about the political spectrum in terms of average American politics, why are we taking the conversation of how liberal Sanders is outside of that context?
 
Battersea Power Station said:
ether

Coates shutting down this fraud, hopefully once and for all. The sooner we get rid of opportunistic politicians like Bernie from our political system, the sooner we can start making real change and real progress.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree at all with the linked article, but really? You really think the only thing wrong with our political system is Bernie Sanders?

One Senator is the only thing wrong with our political system?

Sanders isn't Ralph Nader either. Nader ran as an independent. Sanders is running as a Democrat precisely because he doesn't want to throw the election to the Republicans. He's said he won't run if he isn't nominated.

Sanders isn't a radical, though. He never was. He was a mayor of a city. He served in the House for 16 years. He's been a U.S. Senator for eight years. He served on important committees in the Senate. Radicals don't do that.

What he is, however, is someone with a platform that isn't palatable to moneyed interests in Washington. He also has a way to finance his campaigns that means he isn't dependent on those moneyed interests.

But no, he's not a radical.
 
This is pretty much taking "Both parties are the same." to its final, dumb conclusion.
 
Geist- said:
I'd argue a big part of that was not keeping the public engaged when he needed help implementing what he wanted. It's kind of a long shot, but I'm hoping a Sanders presidency will be willing to mobilize the public when he needs to.

But forget that, even if he mirrors the Obama presidency in terms of what he can do, how could that be anything but a net positive for America?
Click to expand...

This is why I'm voting for Hillary, actually. Her platform more closely approaches "let's take what Obama accomplished and push it further," than Bernie's, which seems to be more about taking everyone on and starting from scratch.

shadowsdarknes said:
Anyone with a slight understanding of how government works knows that Bernie doesn't get to be a dictator and implement these promises.

The obstructionism and gridlock is no secret now, too.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for our President to play the game and get things done through some give and take. To maneuver wherever possible. When it's all said and done, the political process will probably be the same.

Bernie will probably drag his feet and fight the system as much as possible. Less may even get done. 4 years of Bernie can probably chip away at some of the bullshit. But he will probably be very ineffective.

It all depends on what you want.

But if Bernie repeatedly pleads with the public to get behind a major reform, I bet his sincerity will go further than Clinton trying to do the same. People just don't trust her.
Click to expand...

Funny, again this is exactly why I'm voting Hillary.
 
Coffee Dog said:
frankly put, this isn't a subject that deserves coddling.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize internet threads were such dire places ;). I hope Hillary or Bernie can get some healthcare reform going, because thats where people's lives are getting destroyed far more than terrorism here.
 
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