I wasn't being serious, I probably should have made my post a bit more ridiculous.
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Anita Sarkeesian "Tropes vs. Women" Video will come out today [out now, link in OP]
- Thread starter Chairmanchuck
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Youtube comments are always a cesspool, no matter what the topic is. Until we live in a world where everyone's name and phone number are publicly tied to their internet persona, that'll never change.
Alright, going in. Is it bad that hte first thing that I thought of as the video started was that her make up is kinda poorly done?
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Well see whenever Anita suggested "why not give peach/zelda her own adventure" I can't imagine that those particular series have the gut to evolve to suit anything except girl saves guy.
You know what is something she should mention? The separate ways campaign in RE4, where you quickly realize that the only reason Leon is even alive in most of those scenes is due to Ada's design. It isn't even Girl saves guy, it's girl manipulates guy. I don't think it is necessarily negative, we see Ada in a far more in control of every situation she is in. However I can almost guarantee when she speaks about RE4 in her next video she will only talk about Ashley, and if she has anything positive to say about Ashley I will be shocked. Despite the fact that her weakness makes perfect sense given the context of the situation (overwhelming odds, never seen these things before, no experience with weapons, no experience with anything that would help out here period), not to mention when "harassed" about being a girl she always defends herself vocally and is a rather head strong girl, even going as far as to actually get her self out of that one scenario where you have to play as her.
Hell the smooch of victory trope is even subverted when at the end Leon rejects her advances indicating that Leon always knew she was just the mission, whether that further objectifies her would be an interesting debate though.
It's very rippable but people think it's better than expected.
faceless007
Member
I'm genuinely curious to read more of hachi's take on the matter, even though if I'm reading it right it's endorsing a brand of nihilism of research and observation that makes the Heisenberg principle look positively uplifting.
It's kind of funny that you're dismissing the entire notion of analyzing media through tropes, because you know what site dissects media by analyzing exactly the nuances and details and parodies that you claim are missing? TVTropes.
OK, well, I'm pretty sure this is false. Even someone who's only familiar enough with tropes from reading TVTropes is familiar with the idea of subverting a trope or using it ironically or lampshading it or doing something with it other than using it straight. I don't think Anita uses any examples of that in the first video, but I'd be shocked if in the whole series she doesn't point out positive examples of a trope or subversions of one. Please, give us some credit about being able to distinguish satire from the real thing.
I'll admit that Sarkeesian doesn't really do anything to prove this, which is unfortunate, but it's not as if much of what we know today about neuroscience, social science, and how media affects our subconscious perceptions of things especially from a very young age isn't pretty well understood.
Again, I would not say "any," I think she acknowledges parody and irony, and the argument is more "a staggering pervasiveness of the pattern throughout all popular media reinforces them."
I wouldn't say "cleanse"; no one (contrary to straw feminists) is advocating for the wholesale elimination of the trope. But other than that, I'd say that's accurate.
You didn't "show" anything with that example. You presented a possible feminist interpretation of the act, and then a differing interpretation of the act, and declared yours to be "obviously" the correct one. I don't see how it is. Neither interpretation struck me as obviously correct, certainly not without more context or facts about the subjects involved.
Again, I'm fairly confident that Anita is well aware of parody and ironic subversion, etc. However, you can't talk about those without first establishing the straight use of the trope, which is exactly what this first part lays the groundwork for. Do you deny that any of the examples she uses are unironic, uncritical uses of the trope? Even if she didn't spend much time talking about other uses, her series is not intended to be an exhaustive list of every single instance of the trope throughout history--both straight and subverted--there are other sources for that.
It's kind of funny that you're dismissing the entire notion of analyzing media through tropes, because you know what site dissects media by analyzing exactly the nuances and details and parodies that you claim are missing? TVTropes.
Anton Sugar
Member
Considering chivalry and "man as protector" is an inherently misogynist concept, I don't feel that argument is much better.
Again, she (or any critics) aren't taking issue with the idea of a man saving someone he loves. It's the trope of men saving women--it's become a norm, not merely another option for a story.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I liked it, want the next one faster than this one tho.
Cymbal Head
Banned
I can't believe I'm doing this.
Objection: The video doesn't do enough to explain why the trope is harmful.
Its out of the scope of this video to give a complete account and justification of feminist theory. It presupposes the principles of feminism, then deconstructs video games from that perspective. Perhaps she should have made a Feminism 101 introductory video before starting the series proper, but there are plenty of other places to learn about such things.
Objection: She just points out a problem without offering solutions.
For many viewers who have never thought much about sexism in games, simply pointing out the problem may be a necessary first step. Theres an infinite number of conceivable ways to avoid using the trope, and she has no duty to enumerate them.
Objection: Too much of the video consists of a string of examples without analysis. Related objection: She shouldnt criticize remakes for staying true to their source material.
Part of the argument (and indeed of feminist criticism in general) is that disempowering tropes accrete their influence via ubiquity. Giving a lot of examples serves to establish the ubiquity of the damsel in distress trope in video games. Remakes of games using the trope establish this as well. Yes, she could deconstruct each example individually, but that would make the video impractically long, and shed be repeating herself for most of it.
Objection: Most games dont employ this trope out of a deliberate sexism, its just lazy writing.
This is likely true. Now, perhaps it is worth examining why save the helpless woman is what people reach for when they want a lazy scenario, and why that might indicate (and perpetuate) harmful attitudes about women in society.
Objection: This youtube video is not a scholarly thesis.
You are correct, and it was never claimed as such, so your objection doesn't do anything useful for the conversation.
Objection: Disabling the comments on youtube is evidence that she isnt interested in having a legitimate dialogue.
Disabling the comments on youtube is evidence that she doesnt want to be harassed. And despite the comments being off, there seems to be quite a bit of discussion going on elsewhere. For example, on GAF.
Objection: The claim that sexism in video games leads to sexism in real life is analogous to the claim that violence in video games leads to violence in real life.
This misrepresents the nature of feminist criticism. Its not a direct 1:1 causal relationship that is being argued, but the insidious and pernicious influence that popular culture has on peoples attitudes. A better analogy would be that violent video games create and perpetuate a society that is more tolerant of violence (say, as a solution to geopolitical problems).
Objection: These examples are taken mostly from decades-old games.
She promised a treatment of more recent games in the next episode. Lets wait for it to come out before objecting on these grounds.
Objection: The video doesn't consider any games that subvert, break, or intentionally employ the trope as commentary.
She promised to do this in the next video. Lets wait for it to come out before criticizing her on those grounds.
For the love of Yahweh, please try to understand the arguments before you attempt to counter them.
Objection: The video doesn't do enough to explain why the trope is harmful.
Its out of the scope of this video to give a complete account and justification of feminist theory. It presupposes the principles of feminism, then deconstructs video games from that perspective. Perhaps she should have made a Feminism 101 introductory video before starting the series proper, but there are plenty of other places to learn about such things.
Objection: She just points out a problem without offering solutions.
For many viewers who have never thought much about sexism in games, simply pointing out the problem may be a necessary first step. Theres an infinite number of conceivable ways to avoid using the trope, and she has no duty to enumerate them.
Objection: Too much of the video consists of a string of examples without analysis. Related objection: She shouldnt criticize remakes for staying true to their source material.
Part of the argument (and indeed of feminist criticism in general) is that disempowering tropes accrete their influence via ubiquity. Giving a lot of examples serves to establish the ubiquity of the damsel in distress trope in video games. Remakes of games using the trope establish this as well. Yes, she could deconstruct each example individually, but that would make the video impractically long, and shed be repeating herself for most of it.
Objection: Most games dont employ this trope out of a deliberate sexism, its just lazy writing.
This is likely true. Now, perhaps it is worth examining why save the helpless woman is what people reach for when they want a lazy scenario, and why that might indicate (and perpetuate) harmful attitudes about women in society.
Objection: This youtube video is not a scholarly thesis.
You are correct, and it was never claimed as such, so your objection doesn't do anything useful for the conversation.
Objection: Disabling the comments on youtube is evidence that she isnt interested in having a legitimate dialogue.
Disabling the comments on youtube is evidence that she doesnt want to be harassed. And despite the comments being off, there seems to be quite a bit of discussion going on elsewhere. For example, on GAF.
Objection: The claim that sexism in video games leads to sexism in real life is analogous to the claim that violence in video games leads to violence in real life.
This misrepresents the nature of feminist criticism. Its not a direct 1:1 causal relationship that is being argued, but the insidious and pernicious influence that popular culture has on peoples attitudes. A better analogy would be that violent video games create and perpetuate a society that is more tolerant of violence (say, as a solution to geopolitical problems).
Objection: These examples are taken mostly from decades-old games.
She promised a treatment of more recent games in the next episode. Lets wait for it to come out before objecting on these grounds.
Objection: The video doesn't consider any games that subvert, break, or intentionally employ the trope as commentary.
She promised to do this in the next video. Lets wait for it to come out before criticizing her on those grounds.
For the love of Yahweh, please try to understand the arguments before you attempt to counter them.
Personaly I didn't feel she really made any big important points in her video but it isn't bad, I just felt it was kind of obvious. Man though the comment sections on all the artical's about the video are terrible. Half the people haven't seen the video and the rest are 12 year olds.
Peach needs a puzzle game where she uses her wits to escape from captivity, and rescue some toads locked in the basement to boot. I'm out.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
She stood out to me in 2
Would like to see her again
She can really change up the mechanics in most SMB games release, if she got added in
Shy Guys say hi... if they weren't so shy.
And Peach's Smash moveset mostly comes from SMB2US (From floating to turnips). Basically, they didn't completely ignore SMB2US but your point about Peach still stands.
There's the problem. Miyamoto even said the reason why the SMBWii cast is tame is because people would expect different characters to play differently and they didn't want that because then it would actually matter who you chose.
This is an excellent response and I really wish more people could see things this way. Everyone who isn't personally offended by these tropes should at least be able to acknowledge that a lot of other people see it differently than they do. If you're willing to acknowledge that people may feel differently about it, then you might be able to ask yourself "What is the point of some of these tired tropes? Are these tropes adding anything positive to the game experience? Would Mario still be Mario if the opening 10 seconds of kidnapping was either removed or replaced with something more interesting?" Because if a game has nothing to lose by dropping an old, offensive trope, it could very well have something to gain by becoming more original and inclusive.
Delusibeta
Banned
Judging from some of the shit I've seen on Facebook, I'm inclined to say that won't happen.
yea man. people were arguing how she seemed like she was "patronizing" men by using, quote "big words" and "french"... I was like ... come on...
cubicle47b
Member
Don't encourage Nintendo to create actual stories.
"But Mario Bros. has always been the industry's premier princess saving sim (p-PSS)!"
It is a traditional social concept. Only as misogynist as much as it is misandrist.
And your last part I already said. The fact it's so common comes from the fact that they only cater to the male market so the true issue in everything she's going to say is they're appealing to the male market but not the female.
Anton Sugar
Member
Bingo. No one gets to choose what is offensive or not. You can't say, "that's not offensive because I wasn't offended by it". That's not how it works.
I went out of my way to phrase it as "either remove it or replace it" when discussing the Mario example, because Mario doesn't really need a story at all (imo). Having said that, plenty of Nintendo games have excellent stories. The Paper Mario games and the Mario RPG games are often very funny and I've heard great things about the writing in Kid Icarus: Uprising. So at the very least, Nintendo and the translation teams that they use are capable of more than damsel in distress.
staticneuron
Member
Not really. Hachi had a great post about this
I think he hits the nail on the head on why this video seems so slanted.
This thread has been going in circles for a thousand posts now.
- Her research isn't thorough enough. I was hoping for an in depth thesis where we assign variables to certain classes and draw out long conclusions.
- Her research is too in-depth. These are videogames, so why should we care? Look at the third-world and you'll find real violence against women, and all we're doing is analyzing videogame sexism!
- Anita doesn't properly define sexism, so we can't possibly learn from this debate. Anita also doesn't define the damsel in distress trope well enough (hint: she does), so I'm getting very confused about whether a man can be damsel'ed (hint: he can, but again, thanks to gender stereotypes, you'll be hard pressed to think of examples).
- $150,000 for this?!
- All this is obvious! (but I've failed to notice the amount of bickering in this thread, which shows that it is most definitely not obvious to a large part of the population)
- Her research isn't thorough enough. I was hoping for an in depth thesis where we assign variables to certain classes and draw out long conclusions.
- Her research is too in-depth. These are videogames, so why should we care? Look at the third-world and you'll find real violence against women, and all we're doing is analyzing videogame sexism!
- Anita doesn't properly define sexism, so we can't possibly learn from this debate. Anita also doesn't define the damsel in distress trope well enough (hint: she does), so I'm getting very confused about whether a man can be damsel'ed (hint: he can, but again, thanks to gender stereotypes, you'll be hard pressed to think of examples).
- $150,000 for this?!
- All this is obvious! (but I've failed to notice the amount of bickering in this thread, which shows that it is most definitely not obvious to a large part of the population)
She would greatly silence many critics, boost her overall image and raise the profile of her project if she divulged her budget and donated the left over money to a woman's aid group or something. It's not relevant to her arguments, but it would go a long way.
faceless007
Member
Said better than I could.
It's kind of amusing how many people try to counter by saying that the stories in most of these old games don't matter anyway and no one really cares about them....and yet the mere suggestion that the trope probably shouldn't be used so much receives so much pushback.
It's hard not to think that for some of the people replying, the trope really is important to them for some reason.
DamnTheMan
Banned
By the same token everyone shouldn't be offended by something because another person was.
cubicle47b
Member
Aside from Fire Emblem, I think virtually every Nintendo game would be better with 0 story outside "shit's bad, fix it".
Then why reply. Complain to Kickstarter, or call out the donators (you know, the thousands of people that gave her money well beyond what she asked for) if the business model upsets you. But Anita laid out quite clearly what she planned to make, and she has delivered (so far). It's irrelevant to the issue at hand, and it doesn't even deserve an answer, in my mind.
Anton Sugar
Member
Again, you guys are seriously underestimating the cost of decent video production. Professional color correction alone for a 90 minute film can start at $10,000 and go as high as $100,000. Now consider sound design and mix, sound crew, camera crew, editors, etc.
I'm not saying that she shouldn't divulge this info out of goodwill, but she didn't make this for $10,000 and quit her job to live like a king.
I agree if you are stating that people shouldn't offended because others are telling them to, but there is nothing wrong with recognizing WHY someone else was offended and using that as a launching point for a larger social discussion/argument.
Did you read what I wrote? Cause you clearly didn't address my point. If her intention is to advance a cause, then PR plays a part.
The method of funding is tainting her message (the "drama" of it, anyway). This can be resolved gracefully rather than people only shouting "look at her arguments" over the death threats, etc... Why do people have to be so divisive. Is there no more room for compassion?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Very debatable in the case of chivalry. It had a lot more to do with social norms and herarchy that actually gender.
Dude Abides
Banned
As if her critics actually care about that.
DamnTheMan
Banned
But you also shouldn't assume you know the details to her production. There are a number of open source programs available that she could have learned to save cost. Regardless money isn't the issue up for debate here.
It improves her PR and the visibility of her videos/work. It makes her detractors that much more foolish. Constantly shouting "look at her arguments" and ignoring her presentation and PR is not efficient.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. As I said with my post, I wasn't offended when I booted up New Super Mario Bros. U and was greeted with Peach being kidnapped for the 100th time. Why? Because it's just what I expect. This isn't my first rodeo, and I'm not playing Mario for the stupid plot. Just let me jump on goombas and koopas!
But that doesn't mean I'm incapable of stepping out of my own shoes for a moment and hearing out why someone may find Peach's role in the mainline Mario games problematic in its portrayal of women. I'm not going to boycott Mario games, but I'm certainly on board with giving Peach a more heroic role in the next Mario game as opposed to being the helpless victim, and would certainly advocate them doing it if they asked my opinion personally (not that they would or should). And if the next is just another "save Princess Peach" game? I'll probably still buy it.
No way I'm reading 60+ pages of comments - hopefully the objections a few posts above covered most of what was already discussed.
Anyway, I didn't know about that issue with the Starfox game, so I'm glad at least I learned something, even if I didn't expect much from the video.
On the issue of handling captivity in games, it's not so much male versus female as it's escapable versus unescapable - if something can't be escaped, it makes for a frustrating game experience (this is kinda related to the recent "fighting games are frustrating" topic, if you swap captivity with being trapped in a long combo with no way to act), so an outside role is a possible solution.
On this particular issue, Chrono Trigger is an interesting example, as you're put in an escapable prison but deprived from all items, but if youo're captured with Ayla in your party, you're at an advantage, since she doesn't need any weapons to fend for herself (and everyone else) while you go look for your stuff. Probably doesn't quite count as modern enough to be covered in the next video though.
Anyway, I didn't know about that issue with the Starfox game, so I'm glad at least I learned something, even if I didn't expect much from the video.
On the issue of handling captivity in games, it's not so much male versus female as it's escapable versus unescapable - if something can't be escaped, it makes for a frustrating game experience (this is kinda related to the recent "fighting games are frustrating" topic, if you swap captivity with being trapped in a long combo with no way to act), so an outside role is a possible solution.
On this particular issue, Chrono Trigger is an interesting example, as you're put in an escapable prison but deprived from all items, but if youo're captured with Ayla in your party, you're at an advantage, since she doesn't need any weapons to fend for herself (and everyone else) while you go look for your stuff. Probably doesn't quite count as modern enough to be covered in the next video though.
DamnTheMan
Banned
Hey, I don't disagree, peach having a heroic role would be interesting and might prevent me from mashing buttons to skip the intro cutscenes.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yes, of course, she could have attempted to learn these things by herself instead of focusing on her own content and using professionals who have careers in video production. Many people choose to go with professionals.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Yeah, I can't believe someone actually thought up and typed out logical counterpoints to several legitimate objections against this video either. Well done. Good points, all, but I do still take issue with this:
My problem is she's avoiding addressing legitimate criticisms of her work. She does it not only on YouTube, but on Twitter, and her own page. Though this speaks more about her character as a thought leader and researcher than it does about the actual issue being discussed, of course.
She avoids addressing several examples of things that go against the topic of the video. We'll she if she ever ends up addressing any of them in later videos.
faceless007
Member
Not everyone was so impressed.
I wonder if any of the people affirmatively quoting hachi's post as so amazing really understand what it's saying. If I'm reading it right--and it's possible I'm not, I didn't fully understand all the academic jargon--it seems to be saying nobody can accurately analyze or critique any social norm or more of any culture, unless you yourself are explicitly a member of that culture, and that there's no basis we can use to evaluate character traits such as "strength" and "independence" because the meanings of those words shift over time and across societies. This is cultural relativism and semantic nihilism that makes discourse between two people of different cultural values literally impossible.
You're making the ones that are focusing on the issue at hand look like they're the ones deflecting. It's a classic issue of fabricating a complaint and then taking the fact that the person hasn't replied as a means to strengthen the complaint (see: Birthers that used Obama's silence as a means to bolster their ridiculous claim).
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
That is quite interesting to think about, I just posted something on the page about how RE4 has both possible subversion's and strong examples of the post. But it could be interesting to note how exploring the tropes further might deconstruct them completely. Like, why would princess peach know how to fight? Hell in paper mario she does a lot of stuff to make sure mario has the advantage in the castle and even sneaks around. You know it is sad though, I don't expect her to get in depth with any of this.
Considering the lack of availability on research and paper on this subject she's going to become the mainstreams defacto expert, so it would be in her best interest to crack down on this shit.
Anton Sugar
Member
It may have been related more to that in the past, but the present day concept of chivalry is almost purely defined by gender (and now-normal social norms).
DamnTheMan
Banned
Hey, I don't disagree, peach having a heroic role would be interesting and might prevent me from mashing buttons to skip the intro cutscenes. Honestly the Mario series interests me on the basis of gameplay regardless of story content. It's been that way since I was little. Especially because my first experience with Mario was one of those shitty 99 games on one cartridge rom hacks where the story had been removed. If Mario had the gameplay of the walking dead however, the amount of importance I'd put on the story would be significantly altered.
Someone doesn't know what criticism is.
Well it definitely seems like gaf is by the way of responses in this thread.
It's always been a problem she's had, though the format of this particular show doesn't really leave much room for active criticism. It's all scripted, and those scripts aren't going to change at this point. Where it a more interactive or viewer driven show, sure, the minor nitpicks that I had about the first episode would probably have more weight. But until this series is over and she figures out what she's going to do next, the issues we have with the videos are solely for the viewers. They become talking points for the issue of sexism in games.
Which...is kind of what she's trying to do.
That's a sensible argument, but you ignore that people are exposed to various media every day of their lives. It's an aggregate effect over many years, AND it has the added effect of being accepted as a societal norm. People aren't trying to just prove that there is an effect on an individual, they want to point out all the problematic things in media so that media changes.
Ebert has probably said less crackpot things than Freud, but it would be an interesting face-off.
It's bad that you refer specifically to women as people who need to be saved
Again, aggregate effect. It's always the guy saving the girl, it's always the girl not being strong enough to help herself. It doesn't really matter how you frame it or contrive it, it's still the same male-centric thing.
They'd complain that the game got too much of a budget.
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