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Moor-Angol
Banned
(11-02-2014, 04:35 AM)
Daytona (Saturn, RGB, XRGBmini, LCD)




I'd like to know from other Framemeister users which parameters do they use, for example scanlines width
Jacksinthe
Banned
(11-02-2014, 04:46 AM)
This thread is goodness. So much important goodness.
Jobbs
Banned
(11-02-2014, 05:02 AM)

Originally Posted by 7DollarHagane

I am all for scan line emulation. This hardware and these CRTs won't last forever. I want my grandkids to be able to enjoy scan line 240p beauty.

I think as long as people who grew up with 8 bit and 16 bit are alive, there'll be access to working consoles or restored/custom made working consoles -- because the generation that grew up with it will never stop caring about it.
zoleristec
Member
(11-02-2014, 10:58 AM)
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Emulator shots (unfiltered) on an HP p1230:



akachan ningen
Banned
(11-02-2014, 11:05 AM)
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I don't get this. What's so great about scanlines? nostalgia?
omonimo
Banned
(11-02-2014, 11:11 AM)

Originally Posted by akachan ningen

I don't get this. What's so great about scanlines? nostalgia?

You can't. Poetry it's not for all. Get out.
Galdelico
Member
(11-02-2014, 11:16 AM)
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Jesus Christ, this thread. <3
Log4Girlz
(11-02-2014, 11:22 AM)
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I want a new 240p 2d handheld.
Galdelico
Member
(11-02-2014, 11:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Log4Girlz

I want a new 240p 2d handheld.

I want a new CRT... :P
sixteen-bit
Member
(11-02-2014, 11:39 AM)

Originally Posted by Log4Girlz

I want a new 240p 2d handheld.

Walmart has the 2DS on sale for $79 starting Monday.
Lettuce
Member
(11-02-2014, 12:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Log4Girlz

I want a new 240p 2d handheld.

http://www.gcw-zero.com/
kamorra
Fuck Cancer
(11-02-2014, 12:33 PM)
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Fantastic thread. I love, love, looove scanlines. Truly a feast for the eyes.
Wookieomg
Member
(11-02-2014, 12:46 PM)
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All these trips down memory lane... Good times. Nostalgia, the artwork, all those gorgeous visuals. I can't explain it, but the visuals pop off the screen so beautifully with some of these pics. Love this thread!
Exclamation-One
Member
(11-02-2014, 01:01 PM)
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Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-02-2014, 01:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by akachan ningen

I don't get this. What's so great about scanlines? nostalgia?

I think people put too much importance on the simplistic "scanlines" and not enough on all the other effects a 240p CRT display had on graphics.

I used to think simple filters to put scanlines on top of an image were silly, and to some extent I still do. The point is, the graphics in these old games were designed to be displayed on a low-res CRT, and so they are built to work best with the gamma ramp, intra- and inter-scanline blur and phosphor glow which could be expected from that.

If you compare e.g. this image to a straight upscale (nearest neighbour or bilinear or bicubic, doesn't matter really) to 1920x1440, it looks massively better and almost unarguably closer to the artist's intention.
Lettuce
Member
(11-02-2014, 01:47 PM)
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Shattered Hand, Super Castlevania 4, F-Zero, Kabuki Quantum Fighter, Batman: The Video Game, Sonic, Sonic.

Dr_Biscuit
Member
(11-02-2014, 01:48 PM)
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Retroarch NTSC + crt lottes shaders.

Originally Posted by Donkey Kong Country :

Originally Posted by Metal Slug X :


gblues
Banned
(11-02-2014, 04:05 PM)
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Durante is there a trick to tuning Lotte's CRT shader in GeDoSaTo? I tried using it with Daggerfall and the end result was very dark. The shots in my prev post use the other CRT shader.

I don't see a gamma option. I wonder if it has something to do with the colorspace conversions going on?
Peltz
Member
(11-02-2014, 05:05 PM)
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Shovel Knight sure looks great with lines. Does it include scanlines on the Wii U version, or are those user-made?
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-02-2014, 05:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by gblues

Durante is there a trick to tuning Lotte's CRT shader in GeDoSaTo? I tried using it with Daggerfall and the end result was very dark. The shots in my prev post use the other CRT shader.

I don't see a gamma option. I wonder if it has something to do with the colorspace conversions going on?

The shader (someone else merged for GeDoSaTo) is just buggy (or I guess misconfigured) in the current release version. I fixed that, and will push a new version today.
zoozilla
Member
(11-02-2014, 05:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by zoleristec

Emulator shots (unfiltered) on an HP p1230:

Isn't that a CRT PC monitor? Can PC monitors even display 240p? I thought the minimum resolution would be 640x480.

Also, why is 240p so strongly preferred to 480i? If we're talking about the way most people played console games in that era, I would assume it would be with a 480i signal, not a 240p one. Are the scanlines stronger when displaying 240p?

EDIT: Loving all of the shots here, by the way. It's so beautiful!
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-02-2014, 06:48 PM)
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I uploaded the new version now. It can be used to nearest-neighbour upsample and then CRT shade most indie games.

Here are two examples (Touhou 13 and La-Mulana):



With these 640x480 games it's hard to get a really good result on "just" a 2560x1440 screen, since there are only 9 pixels per virtual pixel. Another reason to get a 4k/5k screen ;)
The Mageling
Member
(11-02-2014, 07:26 PM)
Oh my god, Durante you should put a NSFW on that La Mulana image. Too sexy.

I'd like to take some photos of my PVM 14L2, but I'm stuck with just an iPhone (the real camera is packed up). I've tried it in the past and the results are less than stellar. Any tips?
MightyHedgehog
Welcome to the Wasteland.
I hope you're wearing your flak vest!
(11-03-2014, 08:46 AM)
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Rocket Knight Adventures, Sub-Terrania, Shining Force, Phantasy Star IV, Final Fight CD
Genesis model 1, SCART-RGB-to-component converted on a 27" FD Trinitron

I'll probably add some more later if this Imgur account doesn't die too soon, but I want to tweak my color settings on this display.
Peagles
Member
(11-03-2014, 10:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by zoozilla

Isn't that a CRT PC monitor? Can PC monitors even display 240p? I thought the minimum resolution would be 640x480.

Also, why is 240p so strongly preferred to 480i? If we're talking about the way most people played console games in that era, I would assume it would be with a 480i signal, not a 240p one. Are the scanlines stronger when displaying 240p?

EDIT: Loving all of the shots here, by the way. It's so beautiful!

Progressive > Interlaced
Tain
Member
(11-03-2014, 04:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by zoozilla

Isn't that a CRT PC monitor? Can PC monitors even display 240p? I thought the minimum resolution would be 640x480.

Also, why is 240p so strongly preferred to 480i? If we're talking about the way most people played console games in that era, I would assume it would be with a 480i signal, not a 240p one. Are the scanlines stronger when displaying 240p?

EDIT: Loving all of the shots here, by the way. It's so beautiful!

People played console games in that era at 240p, actually. "240p" in this case is simply 480i with the even and odd lines drawing directly on top of each other, more or less. It's roughly what NES/TG16/Genesis/SNES/Saturn/PSX/N64 etc output 99% of the time.
Peltz
Member
(11-03-2014, 04:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Durante

I uploaded the new version now. It can be used to nearest-neighbour upsample and then CRT shade most indie games.

Here are two examples (Touhou 13 and La-Mulana):



With these 640x480 games it's hard to get a really good result on "just" a 2560x1440 screen, since there are only 9 pixels per virtual pixel. Another reason to get a 4k/5k screen ;)

With all due respect Durante, I'm not sure I see what you're going for in some of these pictures. They really don't look like any CRT I've ever seen... even over an RF cable, the signal is sharper than that.
Rich!
If this is a retro/homebrew thread, I'm a helpful poster.

If not, I'm either angry about something minor or ranting about how much GAF sucks because everyone is angry all the time.

This tag will disappear when it is no longer true.
(11-03-2014, 04:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Peltz

With all due respect Durante, I'm not sure I see what you're going for in some of these pictures. They really don't look like any CRT I've ever seen... even over an RF cable, the signal is sharper than that.

I would have to agree. From all my time playing games on a CRT, from 1994 onwards, I've never had a CRT look like that. They've looked like this, taken from my CRT:

I really dislike efforts to introduce artifacts and blurring into CRT filters. It's not accurate, it looks terrible and it's not representative of the real thing at all. My photos above are from a real CRT taken from the real consoles (we've always had RGB input in the UK) and look nothing like the filter Durante posted.

no offence intended, of course.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-03-2014, 05:13 PM)
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The good thing about software filters is that everyone can easily configure their dozens of parameters as they see fit. That said, I disagree with one thing you said: CRT technology is inherently blurry, at the very least to the extent of (a) bright pixels blooming across surrounding dark pixels and (b) the phosphor masking tech used, whatever it is, not perfectly matching pixel alignment/shapes.

Of course, the degree of blur ranges widely with the input signal and type and quality of the CRT, but there is nothing fundamentally artificial about it.
Peltz
Member
(11-03-2014, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Durante

The good thing about software filters is that everyone can easily configure their dozens of parameters as they see fit. That said, I disagree with one thing you said: CRT technology is inherently blurry, at the very least to the extent of (a) bright pixels blooming across surrounding dark pixels and (b) the phosphor masking tech used, whatever it is, not perfectly matching pixel alignment/shapes.

Of course, the degree of blur ranges widely with the input signal and type and quality of the CRT, but there is nothing fundamentally artificial about it.

Yea, but the right picture below is really what the effect you're specifically going for is supposed to look like in my opinion.



I had to Google this since I don't have an RF input on my studio CRT. But this is how I remember the color bleed looking via RF. Also, sorry about the message on the top, it's not exactly my view on the subject.

Anyway, if this is the look you're going for, I sort of see it... sorta.

But when you zoom your browser out really REALLY far, even this fuzzy-ass image still has faint, but perceptible scanlines that your images seem to lack. I think the presence of some more perceptible scanlines in your images would help... after all this IS a scanlines thread :-P
Soulhouf
Member
(11-03-2014, 06:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Durante

I uploaded the new version now. It can be used to nearest-neighbour upsample and then CRT shade most indie games.

Here are two examples (Touhou 13 and La-Mulana):
http://abload.de/img/screenshot_2014-11-027bqob.png
http://abload.de/img/screenshot_2014-11-02oio4d.png

With these 640x480 games it's hard to get a really good result on "just" a 2560x1440 screen, since there are only 9 pixels per virtual pixel. Another reason to get a 4k/5k screen ;)

Can we stop this please?
I don't mean to offend but this doesn't look like a CRT at all.
ToD_
Member
(11-03-2014, 06:17 PM)
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I have to remember to take pictures of my CRT (Sony BVM-20F1U) later. It produces a very sharp image with thick scanlines. It has a fine aperture grille and doesn't bloom as much as most CRTs. It basically looks nothing like the picture above. In a way it resembles a PC CRT monitor running an emulator with 100% black scanlines. So it may be a little too perfect for some. For this thread's purpose it is perfect, though. Also like PC monitors, geometry can be configured with ease.
Unlike PC CRTs, however, this monitor accepts 15KHz RGB input for use with your favorite retro consoles.

Some Neo-Geo pictures should follow later!
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-03-2014, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Soulhouf

Can we stop this please?

No? I don't think this thread is restricted to your idea of CRTs.

Originally Posted by ToD_

I have to remember to take pictures of my CRT (Sony BVM-20F1U) later. It produces a very sharp image with thick scanlines. It has a fine aperture grille and doesn't bloom as much as most CRTs. It basically looks nothing like the picture above.

I have multiple PC CRTs. They also don't look anything like the pictures above (and they don't have any visible scanlines either for that matter). Their shadow mask resolution is greater than 20481536. But that just goes to show that there are a lot of different CRTs.
Peltz
Member
(11-03-2014, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Durante

No? I don't think this thread is restricted to your idea of CRTs.

I have multiple PC CRTs. They also don't look anything like the pictures above (and they don't have any visible scanlines either for that matter). Their shadow mask resolution is greater than 20481536. But that just goes to show that there are a lot of different CRTs.

But this isn't just a retro filter or CRT thread. It's specifically a scanline thread. Images of games should really have some sort of scanlines if they're being posted here.

It really doesn't matter if certain CRTs were incapable of displaying them. And I say this without any sort of disrespect intended, but I'd like for us to stay on topic and only post images of games with scanlines.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-03-2014, 06:52 PM)
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I can see that point. Well, I don't like strong scanlines much, but I'll keep it in mind when posting here.

Just to drive home my point about configurability, here's La-Mulana with a VGA-style shadow mask instead of an aperture grille, horizontal scanlines and much smaller bloom radii both along and across scanlines:




Originally Posted by Peltz

It really doesn't matter if certain CRTs were incapable of displaying them.

I would rather formulate this as "not as susceptible to that particular visual artifact" rather than "incapable" ;).
But as I said, those are the rules of the thread and I will abide by them.
Peltz
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(11-03-2014, 07:12 PM)
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Mega Man on NES, Composite out via XRGB Mini on Panasonic Plasma. This actually doesn't look as bad as you'd think when you put the Framemeister into 720p-meister mode... Dot crawl is still there, but minimized somewhat. It's less flattering in motion though. Still, it does a hell of a lot better than my HDTV's internal scaler.




OOT on RGB-modded N64 via RGB out on 14" Panasonic Studio RGB CRT.

(Sorry about the lamp glare on my OOT pictures)
mothball
Member
(11-03-2014, 07:38 PM)

Originally Posted by Peltz

OOT on RGB-modded N64 via RGB out on 14" Panasonic Studio RGB CRT.

Makes me wish I could have figured out how to patch N64 VC games to display in 240p. Dolphin's debugger seems to have been neglected over the years.
Lord British
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(11-03-2014, 09:21 PM)
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Lovely Lemmings. :)

Retroarch w/filter, Mega Drive version.
sir_kevith
Member
(11-03-2014, 11:19 PM)
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Here's some quick pics I took of Super GnG. The first is the actual cart running off a SNES via RGB to my 14 inch PVM:



The next is from an old Thinkpad I got from Goodwill that I'm running SNES9x on. I installed Soft15Khz on and output to the same monitor via RGB:



They are really close. The pics make the dimensions look off because I took them from slightly different distances but the modeline I used does seem to output just as a SNES would. The SNES has slightly blurred edges that some might prefer while the laptop seems to output a stronger signal with harder edges. The images were taken with my phone so they aren't the greatest but I've always wanted to compare the two.
Peagles
Member
(11-03-2014, 11:32 PM)
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^ Nice. Do you happen to know which motherboard revision your SNES is? Be nice to know which video chip it has.
Peltz
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(11-03-2014, 11:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by sir_kevith

Here's some quick pics I took of Super GnG. The first is the actual cart running off a SNES via RGB to my 14 inch PVM:



The next is from an old Thinkpad I got from Goodwill that I'm running SNES9x on. I installed Soft15Khz on and output to the same monitor via RGB:



They are really close. The pics make the dimensions look off because I took them from slightly different distances but the modeline I used does seem to output just as a SNES would. The SNES has slightly blurred edges that some might prefer while the laptop seems to output a stronger signal with harder edges. The images were taken with my phone so they aren't the greatest but I've always wanted to compare the two.

What model is your SNES? Different SNES systems output different levels of sharpness.
Bancho
Member
(11-03-2014, 11:34 PM)
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This is my RGB snes mini running SG'N'G

Peagles
Member
(11-03-2014, 11:51 PM)
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^ My full size 1CHIP is much the same. Be interesting to see if the other user's SNES is a non-1CHIP.
sir_kevith
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(11-03-2014, 11:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Peltz

What model is your SNES? Different SNES systems output different levels of sharpness.

I'd have to check a bit later but it's the same SNES I've had since I was a kid which we got for Xmas in '91 or '92. Do I look at the Serial # or the actual chip inside the SNES?

I feel like Bancho's pic looks a bit better than what I get with mine.

EDIT: I found the info on RetroRGB's site. I'll try to check when I get home. I'll need to start looking for a SNES mini around town so thanks for the shot Bancho.
Psyrgery ES
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(11-04-2014, 12:06 AM)
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Goodamit, 1080p dreams of being as awesome as 240p w/ scanlines.

Awesome thread, reallly.
Peltz
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(11-04-2014, 12:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by sir_kevith

I'd have to check a bit later but it's the same SNES I've had since I was a kid which we got for Xmas in '91 or '92. Do I look at the Serial # or the actual chip inside the SNES?

I feel like Bancho's pic looks a bit better than what I get with mine.

Never mind then. That makes sense. The earlier models have a softer output than the subsequent models, and the 1chip has the sharpest output when modded for RGB. I also seem to have a really early SNES with soft output, but I prefer it to the sharp look due to nostalgia goggles.
Bancho
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(11-04-2014, 12:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by sir_kevith

I'd have to check a bit later but it's the same SNES I've had since I was a kid which we got for Xmas in '91 or '92. Do I look at the Serial # or the actual chip inside the SNES?

I feel like Bancho's pic looks a bit better than what I get with mine.

EDIT: I found the info on RetroRGB's site. I'll try to check when I get home. I'll need to start looking for a SNES mini around town so thanks for the shot Bancho.

Hey, not a problem. I wouldn't get too hung up on the softer image from the SNES. It still looks like a great image on that PVM and i can image it looks even better IRL. Ultimately your playing it at it's best so enjoy it :-)

Also with the SNES mini, you need to mod it for RGB so that's a small hassle to think about also.
cj_iwakura
Member
(11-04-2014, 12:14 AM)
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Did anyone show Snatcher some love yet? I can fire some up on a CRT.
Peagles
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(11-04-2014, 12:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bancho

Hey, not a problem. I wouldn't get too hung up on the softer image from the SNES. It still looks like a great image on that PVM and i can image it looks even better IRL. Ultimately your playing it at it's best so enjoy it :-)

Also with the SNES mini, you need to mod it for RGB so that's a small hassle to think about also.

Agreed. A lot of people prefer the softer image and compare the 1CHIP to clone hardware. I've tried nearly every revision on my PVM and to be honest they all look great. I don't own any with the vertical band though.
sir_kevith
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(11-04-2014, 12:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Peltz

Never mind then. That makes sense. The earlier models have a softer output than the subsequent models, and the 1chip has the sharpest output when modded for RGB. I also seem to have a really early SNES with soft output, but I prefer it to the sharp look due to nostalgia goggles.

It does make edges a bit smoother and colors do seem to blend a bit more so nostalgia aside; I could still see someone preferring that look.

BTW I love this thread! Personally, I've always been into emulation since the Nesticle days and the concept of replicating hardware in software I find cool. I've just been experimenting with this old laptop running the emulators that I can and hooking it up to the PVM monitor as my own test to see if it's actually passable. I actually do enjoy seeing the emulated scanline shots and scanline generators too for the same reason so I hope no one shy's away from those shots.

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