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KingpinZero
Member
(10-31-2014, 04:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tain

Those shots aren't mine, but instead NUeda's on shmups forums. He apparently went on to make an INI creation tool that would generate nice-looking individual MAME INI files for games depending on their era, but stopped development of it.

I think your best bet would be to check out INI creation tool from his blog: http://mame-hlsl-gallery.blogspot.pt/p/blog-page.html

Thanks alot, that will do. :)
U n i o n 0015
Member
(10-31-2014, 05:15 PM)
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This thread makes me want a Framemeister. I know a true CRT is the best option, but I don't have the space in a tiny house.
robot
Member
(10-31-2014, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by U n i o n 0015

This thread makes me want a Framemeister. I know a true CRT is the best option, but I don't have the space in a tiny house.

I was in the same boat. It's expensive, but outputs incredible PQ, especially w/ RGB. Well worth the investment if you play classic games.
sixteen-bit
Member
(10-31-2014, 05:41 PM)
These are s-video (THE SHAME) from my Gamecube and Game Boy Player with Swiss to force 240p. None of that blurry 480i shit here. Monitor is a Sony PVM14M2U

Metroid Fusion:

Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow:

Drill Dozer:

Metroid Zero Mission detail:

Looks better for darker games I'd say. Drill Dozer would probably look a lot better with component.
Overall, I like how the games look with scanlines despite being designed for a fixed-pixel display (the Game Boy).
digita1alchemy
Member
(10-31-2014, 05:44 PM)
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I have a Gamecube with component cables and a PVM...I have to figure out how to do this 240p Game Boy Player thing.
Lettuce
Member
(10-31-2014, 05:45 PM)
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Final Fight


Midnight Wanders

Sonic The Hedgehog
Lettuce
Member
(10-31-2014, 05:51 PM)
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Battle Circuit

Outrun

baphomet
Member
(10-31-2014, 06:10 PM)
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Hey Lettuce, what's the first game in your second post? Looks cool.
Peltz
Member
(10-31-2014, 06:11 PM)
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Lovely pics Lettuce. Please label non animated ones if you get a chance.
robot
Member
(10-31-2014, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by baphomet

Hey Lettuce, what's the first game in your second post? Looks cool.

Looks like Battle Circuit, a Capcom arcade (CPS2) 4p beat em up that never got a console release.
Peltz
Member
(10-31-2014, 06:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by sixteen-bit

These are s-video (THE SHAME) from my Gamecube and Game Boy Player with Swiss to force 240p. None of that blurry 480i shit here. Monitor is a Sony PVM14M2U

Metroid Fusion:


Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow:


Drill Dozer:


Metroid Zero Mission detail:


Looks better for darker games I'd say. Drill Dozer would probably look a lot better with component.
Overall, I like how the games look with scanlines despite being designed for a fixed-pixel display (the Game Boy).

I do prefer the look of 240p GBA games rather than running in 480p, then applying scanlines via framemeister.

For reference, these are direct shots of Metroid Zero Mission from a DS Lite:







Here it is rendered in 480p via component/GBP, upscaled via Framemeister + fake scanlines




They sort of help, but it doesn't really line up properly with the pixels. You can easily see that something goes wrong along the way and there is bizarre bleeding between the faux scanlines. Gameboy Player is such a sad device. It's so cool on the one hand, and yet... when you examine it more deeply, such a missed opportunity. It should have been the best way to play GBC and GBA games, much like how the Super Gameboy is the "ultimate" way to display OG GB games. But it doesn't look (and more importantly, doesn't feel) like it should.

I still love my GB Player. But it leaves me wanting at the same time. I don't think it's "wrong" to force them into 240p if we are being absolute purists about the subject. This is because OG Gameboy was a fixed LCD dot display as well and Super Gameboy rendered them in 240p, and I think we can all agree it's for the best. So I think it's debatable as to whether it's wrong to render GBA and especially GBC in the same way.

I'm all for it, given Sixteen-bit's results. It looks like it's the best it can look on a big screen.
myca77
Member
(10-31-2014, 07:36 PM)
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SDLMame running on my old MacBook, hooked up to the projector.

Really hard to take photos as I keep blocking the light from the projector :)

First two images use my regular scan line filter I created in photoshop, 3rd uses one that is more prominent for the lols.

Marvel Vs Capcom



R-Type Leo



Marvel Super Heroes

Lettuce
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(10-31-2014, 08:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by baphomet

Hey Lettuce, what's the first game in your second post? Looks cool.

Its Battle Circuit by Capcom


Metamorphic Force
Peltz
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(10-31-2014, 08:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lettuce

Its Battle Circuit by Capcom


Metamorphic Force

Emulator?
Peltz
Member
(10-31-2014, 08:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by jbueno

Now this is my kind of thread. Here are some of the pics Ive taken for my Instagram account which is mostly dedicated to these shots LOL. In no particular order. Ill try to make new ones for this thread as soon as Im done with a stupid test.

What exactly is happening in these white/off white pixels to give them red and green tints? Is that the convergence?

It makes for some pretty cool looking close up shots.
Lettuce
Member
(10-31-2014, 09:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Peltz

Emulator?

Yeah, since the advent of GroovyMame i dont have arcade pcb's anymore
robot
Member
(10-31-2014, 09:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lettuce

Yeah, since the advent of GroovyMame i dont have arcade pcb's anymore

Yea I personally don't think it's worth owning those Konami boards with that giant black sound chip. High failure rates and really tough to repair. I sold my Metamorphic Force because of it.
Meffer
Member
(10-31-2014, 09:27 PM)
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I love stuff like this. It's amazing that developers back then used scanlines to help with the image quality for their games.
Yokai
Member
(10-31-2014, 09:49 PM)
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Are there hdmi upscalers that can emulate scanline image without heavy processing lag?

I wish I had my old crts, but honestly it would be a nightmare to make space for it.
Lettuce
Member
(10-31-2014, 10:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Meffer

I love stuff like this. It's amazing that developers back then used scanlines to help with the image quality for their games.

It wasn't so much that they use scanlines,more so that they HAD to work around it, scanlines was regarded everywhere else bar the gaming scene as a disadvantage to the CRT technology
Meffer
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(10-31-2014, 11:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lettuce

It wasn't so much that they use scanlines,more so that they HAD to work around it, scanlines was regarded everywhere else bar the gaming scene as a disadvantage to the CRT technology

They still used it effectively. Whenever I emulate by GBA games, I make sure to put the scanline filter on since I think they look better that why.
jbueno
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(10-31-2014, 11:20 PM)
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OK so these are not my pics, I found them a few years back while searching for Battle Baregga on Google Images. Those are the best CRT pr0n shots Ive ever seen, made me feel like an amateur CRT pornographer. If the image metadata is to be believed, those were taken with a Canon EOS 5D Mark II, photographing a Nanao MS9 monitor on a Astro City cab. Beautiful stuff.











PeterBazooka
Member
(10-31-2014, 11:53 PM)
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SSF Turbo
Yoshi's Island
Super Castlevania


Btw, LOVE this thread!
Bancho
Member
(10-31-2014, 11:58 PM)
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Been using the PVM-14M2E over the past couple of days. Even though its 14" its a great monitor! Picture is lovely and sharp!

Streets Of Rage, MD RGB 14M2E



Super Castlevania IV Snes Mini RGB 14M2E



And the trusty JVC BM-H2000PN-K

Metroid, RGB AV Famicom



Kirby's Adventure RGB AV Famicom



Gradius III - Snes Mini RGB

sixteen-bit
Member
(11-01-2014, 01:00 AM)
Street Fighter Zero 2 Dash, Saturn:

Mega Man Legends, Playstation:

NBA Jam, Genesis

gblues
Banned
(11-01-2014, 06:10 AM)
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Finally got DOSBOX and GeDoSaTo playing nice together. I couldn't -downsample- per se, but I made DOSBOX upscale to 1080p and then used the postprocessing effects for a CRT effect.

The CRT shader is designed more around an interlaced CRT (TV), but it works pretty well at a 50% strength to give scanlines without making text illegible.

Behold, the 200p glory of TES II: Daggerfall:



antibolo
Banned
(11-01-2014, 07:06 AM)
I feel like emulator screenshots are missing the point of this thread but maybe that's just me.
luka
Loves Robotech S1
(11-01-2014, 08:48 AM)
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Legendary thread. I don't have much to contribute other than these crappy emulator shots that I think I got looking pretty decent:




Originally Posted by baphomet

Streets of Rage 3

This is art.
Lettuce
Member
(11-01-2014, 08:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by antibolo

I feel like emulator screenshots are missing the point of this thread but maybe that's just me.

Errrr why??. The title thread is named Scanline Screenshot thread, emulators can emulate scanlines of CRT technology perfectly.....it's just some of the other CRT traits emulators aren't so good at but with the advent of 4k displays now this is becoming less of an issue
Peagles
Member
(11-01-2014, 09:04 AM)
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OP says they are welcome, so I don't see a problem with it. There's less magic to them IMO, but it's cool to have a resource on how CRTs can be mimicked for those who don't want to get into the hardcore scene.
Peltz
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(11-01-2014, 01:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by antibolo

I feel like emulator screenshots are missing the point of this thread but maybe that's just me.

I wanted to include emulator shots because it's cool to see how far CRT filters have progressed. As sad as it sounds, one day it's pretty much all we will have after age causes most cart-based games, arcade cabinets, and CRTs to die out.
D.Lo
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(11-01-2014, 02:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Peltz

I wanted to include emulator shots because it's cool to see how far CRT filters have progressed. As sad as it sounds, one day it's pretty much all we will have after bit rot and age causes most cart-based games, arcade cabinets, and CRTs to die out.

The age of $20 bargain PVMs will die out, but the day well looked-after carts stop working will be well beyond our lifetimes.

Electric appliances and electronics last a long time if maintained. Some of the oldest computers from the 50s still run. Amplifiers from a hundred years ago and CRTs from the 30s still work too!

I have no doubt there will be working Famicoms in 100 years, when we'll all be gone.
gblues
Banned
(11-01-2014, 04:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by D.Lo

The age of $20 bargain PVMs will die out, but the day well looked-after carts stop working will be well beyond our lifetimes.

Electric appliances and electronics last a long time if maintained. Some of the oldest computers from the 50s still run. Amplifiers from a hundred years ago and CRTs from the 30s still work too!

I have no doubt there will be working Famicoms in 100 years, when we'll all be gone.

There may be working CRTs from decades ago, but they don't look anywhere close to as vibrant as they did when they were new. Phosphors wear out, beams go out of alignment. With nobody making parts anymore, it is simply a matter of time before they are gone.

So, sorry my shots (that took no small effort to make happen) don't meet your hipster standards. OP welcomes them so if you don't like it, start your own thread. :p
Peltz
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(11-01-2014, 04:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by gblues

There may be working CRTs from decades ago, but they don't look anywhere close to as vibrant as they did when they were new. Phosphors wear out, beams go out of alignment. With nobody making parts anymore, it is simply a matter of time before they are gone.

So, sorry my shots (that took no small effort to make happen) don't meet your hipster standards. OP welcomes them so if you don't like it, start your own thread. :p

Boys, boys, boys. Be nice. This thread is a happy place. Let's keep it that way.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-01-2014, 05:42 PM)
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I love the topic of CRT emulation. And I think that, given the right display technology (e.g. high-ppi HDR OLED) we will be able to achieve perfect CRT emulation quite soon.

One interesting thing about this is that it allows you to emulate many different kinds of CRTs, in terms of curvature, shadow mask type and resolution, gamma ramp, amount of color bleed/bloom and so on. Here are 2 screenshots from SMW running on BSNES with Timothy Lottes' CRT shader injected via GeDoSaTo, with slightly different parameters:


It's interesting to me what kind of effect just varying the type of CRT you are simulating has on the graphics.

One more shot, from Seiken Densetsu 3, with my current preferred settings for SNES games:
EasyMode
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(11-01-2014, 06:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Durante

One interesting thing about this is that it allows you to emulate many different kinds of CRTs, in terms of curvature, shadow mask type and resolution, gamma ramp, amount of color bleed/bloom and so on. Here are 2 screenshots from SMW running on BSNES with Timothy Lottes' CRT shader injected via GeDoSaTo, with slightly different parameters:

Durante, you've got some harsh looking artifacts going on in those SMW shots. It's distorting the pixel art. You'd get cleaner results with RetroArch, which includes BSNES cores and crt-lottes (in the latest nightly betas found here).
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-01-2014, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by EasyMode

Durante, you've got some harsh looking artifacts going on in those SMW shots. It's distorting the pixel art. You'd get cleaner results with RetroArch, which includes BSNES cores and crt-lottes (in the latest nightly betas found here).

Yeah, I was actually off in the native resolution for those shots. I fixed that now, and also got the gamma ramp and bloom closer to what I remember my CRT TV looking like.

Edit: actually, that might still be slightly off. Damn analog technology and its non-standards!
Edit2: I tried retroarch with crt-lottes, but so far didn't get close to the results I want (more or less as above)
Peltz
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(11-01-2014, 07:10 PM)
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The OP has been edited with some extra info. I know that it's an image thread but I wanted to provide at least some context for the younger members who happen to stumble upon this thread thinking, "WTF is this?" lol.

Edit: First of all, Durante,I'm a big fan of your work and love checking out your threads. I'm kind of honored that you posted here.

Secondly, is that specifically an attempt at reproducing the image of your own personal CRT? Even though I'm a fan of turning down sharpness settings, that's some pretty extreme interpolation happening. It feels a bit like too many faux-pixels are making up each sprite, and the sprites don't look like they're being drawn by the pixels, but rather plastered on top of them. For example, take a look at the letter "S" where it says "Save" in your FFIV shot. It feels like the top row of horizonal pixels is taking up 3 lines when it's only supposed to be 1 row of pixels.

Just my two cents. But I'm sure you have your reasons.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-01-2014, 07:28 PM)
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I got it to look pretty much exactly like I want it now, with the BSNES+GeDoSaTo combination. And also with correct native resolution mapping. (Well, not really "correct", but "proportional", which is what I wanted)

I realize it's very blurry, but that's by choice. I guess I always used shitty CRTs when I wa a kid ;)
By the way, note how the scanline/mask detail is visible in the mid-tone areas, but blown out in the bright ones, just like in many of the real photos in this thread.

Originally Posted by Peltz

Secondly, is that specifically an attempt at reproducing the image of your own personal CRT? Even though I'm a fan of turning down sharpness settings, that's some pretty extreme interpolation happening. It feels a bit like too many faux-pixels are making up each sprite, and the sprites don't look like they're being drawn by the pixels, but rather plastered on top of them. For example, take a look at the letter "S" where it says "Save". It feels like the top row of horizonal pixels is taking up 3 lines when it's only supposed to be 1 row of pixels.

Just my two cents. I'm sure you have your reasons.

Heh, I wrote the explanation above before reading this, but yeah, that's pretty much exactly what it is. An attempt to get close to the CRT I played my SNES games on back in the 90s.

What I'm using is a 4:1 virtual -> emulated pixel mapping, with heavy bloom/pixel cross-talk.
jeremiahg
Junior Member
(11-01-2014, 07:42 PM)
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This thread makes it clear that merely using an emulator's default settings or playing an old console on a modern TV doesn't do an accurate job portraying the visuals. Scanlines are a fundamental part of the "look" of retro games. The pixel art of the time seems to depend on the scan lines, as if it was designed around it.
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
(11-01-2014, 07:46 PM)
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It's been over a decade since I saw legit scanlines on CRT. I almost forgot how beautiful they look. Can we go back please?
Seik
something about preservation I guess
(11-01-2014, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by jeremiahg

This thread makes it clear that merely using an emulator's default settings or playing an old console on a modern TV doesn't do an accurate job portraying the visuals. Scanlines are a fundamental part of the "look" of retro games. The pixel art of the time seems to depend on the scan lines, as if it was designed around it.

Not through default settings, but you can add scanlines to almost every retro emulators available. It does a pretty good job, imo.
Jobbs
Banned
(11-01-2014, 08:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Seik

Not through default settings, but you can add scanlines to almost every retro emulators available. It does a pretty good job, imo.

old RGB televisions had a luminescent quality that I haven't seen emulated that well. That said, I haven't seen a lot of emulators.
Seik
something about preservation I guess
(11-01-2014, 08:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

old RGB televisions had a luminescent quality that I haven't seen emulated that well. That said, I haven't seen a lot of emulators.

I heard Retroarch could do wonders with some filters. Though I can't pronounce about luminescence because I'm not using Retroarch and deal just fine with the emulators basic scanline filters.

You're right though, most emulators can't replicate the luminescent quality of CRT TVs.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(11-01-2014, 08:34 PM)
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The best you can do in terms of reproducing luminance is accumulating the effect of the strength of the ray on surrounding scanlines and also take earlier/later pixels in the scanline into account. Which basically amounts to a large, luminance-dependent, anisotropic Gaussian masked by the shadow mask.
Once that is taken care of (and the Lottes shader does it well IMHO), the other thing you need is a good, fast, high-resolution and high-contrast display.

Anyway, the reason the 4:1 mapping was looking much better than 1:1 is because the texture lookup still wasn't quite right. I now implemented an ugly hack in the shader to make it work correctly (no idea why this is necessary), and after some more tweaking the 1:1 output also looks neat:



Now after spending hours investigating and tuning this CRT shading thing I want to play a SNES game.
Peltz
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(11-01-2014, 09:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Durante

Yeah, I was actually off in the native resolution for those shots. I fixed that now, and also got the gamma ramp and bloom closer to what I remember my CRT TV looking like.

Edit: actually, that might still be slightly off. Damn analog technology and its non-standards!
Edit2: I tried retroarch with crt-lottes, but so far didn't get close to the results I want (more or less as above)

Originally Posted by Durante

The best you can do in terms of reproducing luminance is accumulating the effect of the strength of the ray on surrounding scanlines and also take earlier/later pixels in the scanline into account. Which basically amounts to a large, luminance-dependent, anisotropic Gaussian masked by the shadow mask.
Once that is taken care of (and the Lottes shader does it well IMHO), the other thing you need is a good, fast, high-resolution and high-contrast display.

Anyway, the reason the 4:1 mapping was looking much better than 1:1 is because the texture lookup still wasn't quite right. I now implemented an ugly hack in the shader to make it work correctly (no idea why this is necessary), and after some more tweaking the 1:1 output also looks neat:



Now after spending hours investigating and tuning this CRT shading thing I want to play a SNES game.

That looks way better to me.

As far as emulating the phosphorescent glow of a real CRT, maybe that's where 3D displays could help. I have no idea how. But the glow is supposed to "emanate" from the screen, so I don't see how a 2D flat-panel could ever accomplish it with a mere filter.

It's kind of a weird use of 3D technology though.... needing to go to super high resolutions and into the 3rd dimension to recreate something that was low res and 2D seems ass backwards and yet... it's also a worthy pursuit at the same time.
kinn
Member
(11-01-2014, 10:15 PM)
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Loving this thread.

When I get a chance I'm gonna try some scan lines myself. What's the default/normal one that's everyone here using or recommended?
Tain
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(11-01-2014, 11:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by kinn

Loving this thread.

When I get a chance I'm gonna try some scan lines myself. What's the default/normal one that's everyone here using or recommended?

When it comes to CRT filters, it all depends on the platform. MAME's HLSL filter is best to me and very flexible.
Lettuce
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(11-02-2014, 02:22 AM)
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Xexex, Ninja Spirits, Dragon Breed, TMNT.

7DollarHagane
Banned
(11-02-2014, 04:31 AM)
I am all for scan line emulation. This hardware and these CRTs won't last forever. I want my grandkids to be able to enjoy scan line 240p beauty.

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