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IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:34 PM)
Sony has had a patent which uses an NFC tag to determine if a game has been used before. This could be used to block all used games, but could be used in a far more user-friendly way. Imagine Kaz Harai presenting it like this at E3:


"We've heard a lot of confusing about disc-based DRM lately, and we're here to set our record straight. PS4 is built to allow it's customers to have just as many rights as the PS3. We want every gamer around the world to be able to play PS4 in any living situation. We're using a breakthrough technology in NFC to allow this, but to also give gamers more options. Options that allow them to have the advantage of downloadable purchases, without having to sacrifice their data caps with 40 GB game downloads. "

"PS4 will install all games onto the PS4. By default, the game acts as key to play the game, like how it is today. However, if you wish to not have to do this, you can tell the PS4 to use the NFC tag to not require a disc check anymore. The NFC tag registers the game, and it will now no longer play on another system. You now do not need to put the disc in to play."

"But what about if you want to sell the game? What if you just want to let a friend borrow it? What if you want to give your game to your nephew? Ofcourse we've thought of this. The NFC chip is reversible. Simply reverse the process and de-authenticate the game being playable without the disc, and the NFC tag will now revert back to it's default state! We're giving you the choice. We've even embedded a watermark on the disc so anybody can easily identify if the game has already been NFC-tagged with a checkmark or "X". No online required."








Thoughts?
Last edited by IHaveCandy; 05-25-2013 at 10:42 PM.
RoboPlato
I'd be in the dick
(05-25-2013, 10:35 PM)
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I would be OK with this.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(05-25-2013, 10:36 PM)
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It solves how you allow people to play without a disc without requiring a net check - and that's great - but that's about it.

Doesn't address anything about used sales tracking, which is probably what Sony will want to at least allow pubs to do if they so choose.
Somnid
Corporate Ballwasher
Ignore everything I say
(05-25-2013, 10:37 PM)
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Use an app to scan NFC tag, tap tablet to PS4. Free games.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:37 PM)

Originally Posted by gofreak

It solves how you allow people to play without a disc without requiring a net check - and that's great - but that's about it.

Doesn't address anything about used sales tracking, which is probably what Sony will want to at least allow pubs to do if they so choose.

Yes, this solution wouldn't make publishers as happy.
sn00zer
(05-25-2013, 10:37 PM)
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Lets see if that is actually used....but yeah doesnt sound awful
FrozenCell
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:37 PM)
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how about just announce their policy hasn't changed from this gen.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:38 PM)

Originally Posted by Somnid

Use an app to scan NFC chip, tap tablet to PS4. Free games.

Is NFC completely hackable? Can it not be customized to with proprietary tech?
Holly Caust
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:38 PM)

Originally Posted by FrozenCell

how about just announce their policy hasn't changed from this gen.

this.

I still want account share to be a thing next gen :|
Ryu
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:39 PM)
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How would people know if the NFC tag is used or not if they buy the game used? Only find out once they put the disk in their console?
Willy Wanka
my god this avatar owns
(05-25-2013, 10:39 PM)
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Doing it 100% right would be keeping it as it is now.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:39 PM)

Originally Posted by FrozenCell

how about just announce their policy hasn't changed from this gen.


Originally Posted by Willy Wanka

Doing it 100% right would be keeping it as it is now.

That is exactly how this method would act. By default, it acts like today. It simply gives you the option to make the game attached to your account, but you can also reverse it. By default, it is just like last gen.
CambriaRising
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by FrozenCell

how about just announce their policy hasn't changed from this gen.

This. The NFC thing is like going around your hand to get to your thumb.
StuBurns
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:39 PM)
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The whole concept of this argument is flawed.

The idea that if people want to install games and not insert discs, that the people who buy at retail need to be screwed in the process. We already have this service, and it works perfectly well, if you want to have the game on your HDD, and not to put a disc in, you buy it from GoD and PSN.
CengizMan
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:40 PM)
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I had this idea some time ago too, but the main problem I had was the hackability. I'm not sure how easy it would be to hack a system like that. It's an ideal solution if it is safe, in my opinion.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Ryu

How would people know if the NFC tag is used or not if they buy the game used? Only find out once they put the disk in their console?

"We've even embedded a watermark on the disc so anybody can easily identify if the game has already been NFC-tagged with a checkmark or "X". "

If that is not possible, which I am pretty sure it is, then too bad for GameStop?
RoboPlato
I'd be in the dick
(05-25-2013, 10:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

Yes, this solution wouldn't make publishers as happy.

I have an idea for a solution that would make pubs happy. An opt in for diskless play. You want to play diskless, you accept the DRM. If not, you need the disk in the drive. Still far from ideal but it could work.
uuaschbaer
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:41 PM)
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Absolutely fine. Although if your PS4 died, it'd be problematic. Unless you bind them to an account but then you can't play them on another account without reversing the whole thing, which would be annoying.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(05-25-2013, 10:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by StuBurns

The whole concept of this argument is flawed.

The idea that if people want to install games and not insert discs, that the people who buy at retail need to be screwed in the process.

Well his point is that you can do this - allow disc-less play - without screwing people who buy at retail. They'd still have total and independent transfer rights over the game in his scenario.

But of course, this wouldn't be a comprehensive solution for a platform holder who probably at least needs to offer the option of used game control to pubs. So there would have to be 'more' to his suggestion that addresses that.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:42 PM)

Originally Posted by StuBurns

The whole concept of this argument is flawed.

The idea that if people want to install games and not insert discs, that the people who buy at retail need to be screwed in the process. We already have this service, and it works perfectly well, if you want to have the game on your HDD, and not to put a disc in, you buy it from GoD and PSN.

It really helps people who have data caps. 40+ GB downloads are going to suck.
alr1ght
bish gets all the credit :)
(05-25-2013, 10:42 PM)
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This gives them no advantages to control you over how they do it now. You can't play without a legit disc anyways.

It would give us the benefit of installable games.
godelsmetric
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-25-2013, 10:43 PM)
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No. Guy sells you the disc on eBay and doesn't de-authenticate it. You're screwed.
JoeTheBlow
Fighting the good fight against the rules of mathematics.
(05-25-2013, 10:43 PM)
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They're a Japanese company.
They will want to sell on their own soil.
There will be no anti-used game policy.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:43 PM)

Originally Posted by uuaschbaer

Absolutely fine. Although if your PS4 died, it'd be problematic. Unless you bind them to an account but then you can't play them on another account without reversing the whole thing, which would be annoying.

You would just log into another PS4 and do the same de-authenticating process. It's not different than today. You can't play your PS3 games on a broken PS3. You can play them once you get a new PS3 or on a friend's PS3.
nbthedude
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:43 PM)
No, kill the used game market. Stab it in the heart. I believe in you giant corporations.

Drag the digital neanderthals into the 21st century and force them to accept the idea that the stuff you own is temporary like life itself and that they should spend their life and time thinking about something other than "mine, mine, mine forever." Experiences are meaningful. Stuff isn't. Force consumers to value the experience over the physical object. You paid for a movie ticket. Enjoy the show. Stop trying to own it forever.
big_erk
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:44 PM)
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My idea is this - You buy a new game, the game comes with 2 activation keys. You use one key to play or install the game on your main console. The second key is for your second console or to allow you to take the game to a friends house and requires the disc to play. Once you use the 2 keys you can't use the game in any other consoles. You can however de-activate either key at any time to be re-used as you please.
RPGCrazied
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:44 PM)
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Should be like this generation, I buy a $60 game, I can do with it how I see fit. If I want to lend it to someone so they can play, then I should be able to.

I hated the word Microsoft used, "premission" to let you play a game you paid for. Oh gee, thanks Microsoft.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:44 PM)

Originally Posted by godelsmetric

No. Guy sells you the disc on eBay and doesn't de-authenticate it. You're screwed.

That's eBay's problem. People could easily just sell you an empty box on eBay. What's the difference?
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(05-25-2013, 10:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

No. Guy sells you the disc on eBay and doesn't de-authenticate it. You're screwed.

True, that is a problem.

Spoiling your eBay rep may be the only deterrent there.
Certinty
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:45 PM)
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I like this idea. I really do.
Hawk269
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:45 PM)
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Yeah, OP. It was a nice fantasy and I like how you emphasized Haz talking about the "gamer" and we care about the "gamer". But what you wrote would not work because all it would do is create Piracy. For example, I buy 5 PS4 games, I tell my system to authenticate so I no longer need the disk. Great, I can play my 5 new games without the disk that is awesome.

I then take those 5 games and trade them in for cash, but at home I still have them on my system and I did not reverse the DRM. So now I have 5 free games plus some extra cash in my pocket. The trade-in store now sells these games at their inflated markup then the poor user goes home and cant use it because it is already been locked by another user.

In other words, it ain't going to work.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:46 PM)

Originally Posted by big_erk

My idea is this - You buy a new game, the game comes with 2 activation keys. You use one key to play or install the game on your main console. The second key is for your second console or to allow you to take the game to a friends house and requires the disc to play. Once you use the 2 keys you can't use the game in any other consoles. You can however de-activate either key at any time to be re-used as you please.

It wouldn't work that way. You'd see game sales cut in half. It would be like getting two copies of a game with a single purchase.
uuaschbaer
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

You would just log into another PS4 and do the same de-authenticating process. It's not different than today. You can't play your PS3 games on a broken PS3. You can play them once you get a new PS3 or on a friend's PS3.

That only works if it is tied to my account otherwise I could authenticate it, give it away, and someone else could deauthenticate it again and install it on his machine.

Edit: And how can two people share it if it's tied to one of their accounts? They'd better leave it deauthenticated. Although I admit it would be of some use to people who have no intention of sharing their games with roommates or wives etc.
Last edited by uuaschbaer; 05-25-2013 at 10:52 PM.
big_erk
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

It wouldn't work that way. You'd see game sales cut in half. It would be like getting two copies of a game with a single purchase.

Sony already kind of does this with digital purchases. Don't you get to install your digital purchases on 2 machines.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:47 PM)

Originally Posted by Hawk269

Yeah, OP. It was a nice fantasy and I like how you emphasized Haz talking about the "gamer" and we care about the "gamer". But what you wrote would not work because all it would do is create Piracy. For example, I buy 5 PS4 games, I tell my system to authenticate so I no longer need the disk. Great, I can play my 5 new games without the disk that is awesome.

I then take those 5 games and trade them in for cash, but at home I still have them on my system and I did not reverse the DRM. So now I have 5 free games plus some extra cash in my pocket. The trade-in store now sells these games at their inflated markup then the poor user goes home and cant use it because it is already been locked by another user.

In other words, it ain't going to work.

"We've even embedded a watermark on the disc so anybody can easily identify if the game has already been NFC-tagged with a checkmark or "X"."

Even if that isn't possible, which I'm almost certain is with today's tech, GameStop would simply not accept PS4 games used.
Hawk269
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by big_erk

My idea is this - You buy a new game, the game comes with 2 activation keys. You use one key to play or install the game on your main console. The second key is for your second console or to allow you to take the game to a friends house and requires the disc to play. Once you use the 2 keys you can't use the game in any other consoles. You can however de-activate either key at any time to be re-used as you please.

I lost my key, what do I do now?

Yeah, it is not going to work that way. I say we wait until Sony and MS come out and say what they are doing because all that is going on here is wishful thinking and those with big heads thinking that they know the business better than Sony and MS.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:48 PM)

Originally Posted by big_erk

Sony already kind of does this with digital purchases.

Yeah, but that was sort of a secret that most people didn't know. I tell people that all the time and they are stunned to hear it. Putting the codes in the box saying "here are two activation copies" would just make it known to everybody.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(05-25-2013, 10:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

"We've even embedded a watermark on the disc so anybody can easily identify if the game has already been NFC-tagged with a checkmark or "X"."

Even if that isn't possible, which I'm almost certain is with today's tech, GameStop would simply not accept PS4 games used.

Or would pop them in a machine to see if the disc is usable. That creates a bit of logistic hoop jumping for GameStop...but I guess that's GameStop's problem to deal with if they really want their used games ;)
StuBurns
Banned
(05-25-2013, 10:49 PM)
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It's certainly possible to tag the individual games, for all we know, they already do, they did it on PSP and none of us knew for years.
The Faceless Master
(05-25-2013, 10:49 PM)
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sounds great until people start pirating the NFC tags.
Dorimukyasuto
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Faceless Master

sounds great until people start pirating the NFC tags.

How?
big_erk
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hawk269

I lost my key, what do I do now?

Yeah, it is not going to work that way. I say we wait until Sony and MS come out and say what they are doing because all that is going on here is wishful thinking and those with big heads thinking that they know the business better than Sony and MS.

Actually what I'm thinking would be more like the two installs are tied to one activation key. Once you use the key the activations are tied to your account. At that point all key management is done online. Only the account that activated the key would be able to de-activate or transfer the key. The keys could be a sticker on the discs themselves.
Theman2k
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by FrozenCell

how about just announce their policy hasn't changed from this gen.

This. Nothing else is acceptable.
UncleSporky
Member
(05-25-2013, 10:58 PM)
Why not just make it so that when the disc is inserted in another system, it takes the license away from you over the internet?

And then to prevent one person having the disc and the original owner just keeping their system offline, you require a quick online check before booting up a single player game that has been fully installed. You also offer the option to uninstall and go back to normal disc playback which requires no online check (of course this person no longer has the disc so that's fine).
Korigama
Member
(05-25-2013, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by FrozenCell

how about just announce their policy hasn't changed from this gen.

Pretty much the only thing I want to be hearing from them.
Terrell
Member
(05-25-2013, 11:00 PM)
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I think staying as FAR away from the mess Microsoft has made would be more in their favor, so how about... oh, I dunno, not implementing DRM at all?

However, this is a Sony E3 event, so a fuck-up in some fashion is almost inevitable.
StuBurns
Banned
(05-25-2013, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by UncleSporky

Why not just make it so that when the disc is inserted in another system, it takes the license away from you over the internet?

And then to prevent one person having the disc and the original owner just keeping their system offline, you require a quick online check before booting up a single player game that has been fully installed. You also offer the option to uninstall and go back to normal disc playback which requires no online check (of course this person no longer has the disc so that's fine).

People don't want online checks.

It seems really simple if they want to be fully pro-consumer. Every disc has a unique tag, you put the disc in, you choose to install, if you do so, it requires you to be online, it gets the tag, and that game is worthless until you choose to remove it from your profile, and Sony releases the tag back into the used market. This leaves the possibility of someone installing games, and selling them to someone who never intends to take their console online, but I don't think that's such a regular or concerning situation that it would stop it being viable.
Hawk269
Member
(05-25-2013, 11:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by big_erk

Actually what I'm thinking would be more like the two installs are tied to one activation key. Once you use the key the activations are tied to your account. At that point all key management is done online. Only the account that activated the key would be able to de-activate or transfer the key. The keys could be a sticker on the discs themselves.

Won't I need to be connected to internet in order to "activate" my key? I doubt Sony would do that because, you know they are for the gamer and all and they would never, ever, ever require you to be on-line at all.

Yeah, being sarcastic...but this would require and internet connection and all the hate of the X1 (without any 100% proof may I add) about the possibility of needed to be connected or connected at least once every 24 hours etc.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
(05-25-2013, 11:02 PM)
That system is the optimal way of offering benefits without offending people who want to trade shit on. But it doesn't actually solve anything besides letting you play games without discs, which isn't the main purpose of the system in the first place. I'd welcome it though.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-25-2013, 11:03 PM)

Originally Posted by UncleSporky

Why not just make it so that when the disc is inserted in another system, it takes the license away from you over the internet?

And then to prevent one person having the disc and the original owner just keeping their system offline, you require a quick online check before booting up a single player game that has been fully installed. You also offer the option to uninstall and go back to normal disc playback which requires no online check (of course this person no longer has the disc so that's fine).

Because that would require an online check, like the Xbox One.

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