[Reallink]

Given the size and interest of the Sony HMZ-T1 thread, I figured the Rift probably needed some kind of dedicated update and discussion depository here. Some of you guys are probably familiar with John Carmack demoing this thing around E3 to the likes of Tested, Giantbomb, and G4. Definitely recommend giving them a watch as he describes it very well. The hardware's being developed by a guy named Palmer Luckey. I'm not sure where Carmack's involvement begins and ends, certainly he's working some magic on the software side.

To be clear, this is not a general use HMD like the HMZ-T1. It is effectively limited to content that is specifically designed to support it (from what I gather this means Doom 3 BFG, whatever end users hack up, and whatever other developers/titles jump on board). The reason for this is also what makes it unique. It has an enormous 90º FOV (the image covers almost your entire visual field). Content has to support this and also correct for the inherent warping/fish eye distortion of the optics (Carmack explains this in the GB video). Obviously it also supports HMD's trademark flawless stereoscopic 3D (which is on a completely different level than 3DTV's), includes head tracking, and has really low latency. The first iteration plans to use a single 6" 1280x800 LCD (640x800 per eye) and has HDMI/DVI/VGA inputs. Being open source and DIY, the display and optics will supposedly be upgradable in the future (though it may require significant modding and be almost as costly as an entire new unit). Hoped to be driven by mobile displays, Carmack has mentioned 1080p by the end of 2012 and 2.5k in 2013. Palmer's most recent update on MTBS3D mentions he has been in talks with Valve, Id/Zeni/Bethesda, Epic, Crytek, Unity, and others about future support. He also teases a future device (as early as 2013) with greater than 1080p resolution per eye, absolute head and hand tracking/positioning, and native Oculus integration with several game engines. Definitely a device to keep an eye on.

Kickstarter details:

$275 DIY Kit with Doom 3 BFG (estimated November release)

OR

$300 assembled unit with D3 BFG (estimated December release)

Specs (subject to change):

Head tracking: 6 degrees of freedom (DOF) ultra low latency
Field of view: 110 degrees diagonal / 90 degrees horizontal
Resolution: 1280x800 (640x800 per eye)
Inputs: DVI/HDMI and USB
Platforms: PC and mobile
Weight: ~0.22 kilograms (0.48lbs)

The official Oculus site: http://oculusvr.com/

The Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...-into-the-game

[Durante]

Great to have a thread for this, I wanted to put one up when the kickstarter launched. I'm almost certain I'll bite on the $500 kit, and I'm also planning to contribute to Biclops as well.

[I Stalk Alone]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=oculus


Already a thread a couple of weeks ago.

[Durante]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=oculus Already a thread a couple of weeks ago.

That was about the Carmack interview/demo though, and much of the talk was about his comments regarding next-gen consoles.

[jaypah]

thanks for making this thread reallink. This is what I want, total immersion with head tracking. The FOV is just icing on the cake but thinking about it it's an essential part that I didn't even realize I wanted. This may be my Christmas gift from my girl. I'm sure she'll dig it too as we're both big on 3D.

[plagiarize]

i'm going to end up getting into this kickstarter and my wife is probably going to kick me in the balls for it. i'm not happy about the resolution, but will that better model exist if we don't support this one?

support is a concern too... but we'll see.

[Danneee]

Would love for VR to make a comeback, I was too young and poor last time around.

[Durante]

One great thing about VR is that it's extremely sensitive to latency. Now you may ask why such a limitation is actually a positive influence on today's gaming market. Well, this both forces developers to take care in making their games as responsive as possible and basically makes it incompatible with cloud-based streaming services.

[plagiarize]

I have the official go ahead for this. Very excited. $500 for something only confirmed to work for one game. provably by most extravagant purchase.

[Durante]

I have the official go ahead for this. Very excited. $500 for something only confirmed to work for one game. provably by most extravagant purchase.

I think shortly after release it will (be made to) work with quite a few other games, Including Mirror's Edge and Skyrim. The implementation may not be as complete as if it had been built into the games of course, but it will be there.

Of course, it's still an extravagant purchase, but 10 years from now you'll be able to say that you were there when the future of gaming started.

[Zaptruder]

I'll pick this up if developers (or modders, I don't really care) are able to seperate head look from mouse look.

That is - I can look and shoot in different directions. Otherwise, shooting from the center of my head is... going to be as disorientating as having the screen move with my head with my HMZ-t1.

[1-D_FTW]

I'm gonna wait it out in hopes that better driver hacks and resolutions become available.

Carmack does have a meeting scheduled with Valve. So I'd be pretty stunned if Valve doesn't at least start providing support for their games.

[M3d10n]

I have the official go ahead for this. Very excited. $500 for something only confirmed to work for one game. provably by most extravagant purchase.

Valve loves this kind of stuff, so I'm sure they'll update Source games to support it at some point. Would give Pyrovision a completely new meaning.

[plagiarize]

I'm gonna wait it out in hopes that better driver hacks and resolutions become available. Carmack does have a meeting scheduled with Valve. So I'd be pretty stunned if Valve doesn't at least start providing support for their games.

he had the meeting on friday actually. he seemed happy with how it went.

I'll pick this up if developers (or modders, I don't really care) are able to seperate head look from mouse look. That is - I can look and shoot in different directions. Otherwise, shooting from the center of my head is... going to be as disorientating as having the screen move with my head with my HMZ-t1.

Doom 3 works how you want it to, as i understand. hopefully it'll be the norm.

[TTP]

Doom 3 works how you want it to, as i understand. hopefully it'll be the norm.

Doom 3 doesn't work like that. You actually aim with head movement. Or rather fine tune aim. You still control the gun/viewpoint simultaneously with the stick.

[Tobor]

If somebody get's this working with Skyrim, I'm in.

[dark10x]

My one major concern here is the quality of the display itself. We already know the resolution is low, but the more significant problem lies with the fact that we are probably dealing with a middling quality LCD. Contrast performance will probably be poor and response time is an unknown. Despite the narrow view port, the HMZ-T1 uses OLED screens allowing for extremely rick blacks and fast movement. For this type of display OLED screens are an absolute must.

[brainpann]

My one major concern here is the quality of the display itself. We already know the resolution is low, but the more significant problem lies with the fact that we are probably dealing with a middling quality LCD. Contrast performance will probably be poor and response time is an unknown. Despite the narrow view port, the HMZ-T1 uses OLED screens allowing for extremely rick blacks and fast movement. For this type of display OLED screens are an absolute must.

Maybe but I spend a little time on MTBS3D forum and Palmer knows his stuff. I don't think he would do this if those issues weren't addressed.

[Durante]

OLED screens are optimal in theory, but not when you're feeding them with 50 ms of input lag (as in the HMZ). Anyway, the screen assembly will be upgradable as better options arrive.

If somebody get's this working with Skyrim, I'm in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjV0jLVC9MU

[1-D_FTW]

OLED screens are optimal in theory, but not when you're feeding them with 50 ms of input lag (as in the HMZ). Anyway, the screen assembly will be upgradable as better options arrive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjV0jLVC9MU

That's just Sony being Sony though. I'm pretty sure there's nothing inherently troublesome about OLED that would make it any worse than LCD (which we know can be 0 ms if it's a manufacturer priority).

[Durante]

That's just Sony being Sony though. I'm pretty sure there's nothing inherently troublesome about OLED that would make it any worse than LCD (which we know can be 0 ms if it's a manufacturer priority).

Absolutely. I'm not saying OLED would be a bad choice by any means -- if you can tell Palmer where to source OLED panels at the correct size and resolution, with a low-latency controller board I'm sure he'll be ecstatic!

[eastmen]

This is really interesting however the lack of support kills it for me esp at the $500 price point. I think we are going to get some big leaps foward on this with the next gen of consoles.

[Atomski]

This is really interesting however the lack of support kills it for me esp at the $500 price point. I think we are going to get some big leaps foward on this with the next gen of consoles.

I doubt we will see it on next gen consoles. The price and such.. they would probably rather stick to casual motion controls.

PC however I could see it taking off. Even if a game did not support it I could see modders finding ways around that. I pray Valve take him up on it (he was talking to them in one of the articles).

This would be amazing for games like Arma (special Dayz) and Skyrim.

[Hatten]

It sounds great but I'm waiting for the 2.0 version

No offense but it's a kit, "some assembly required" and probably solder too

And then theres the software: the only game guaranteed to work is Doom3, a game I only played once and never again

Again it's a great idea but it's too early for me

[Reallink]

I doubt we will see it on next gen consoles. The price and such.. they would probably rather stick to casual motion controls. PC however I could see it taking off. Even if a game did not support it I could see modders finding ways around that. I pray Valve take him up on it (he was talking to them in one of the articles). This would be amazing for games like Arma (special Dayz) and Skyrim.

I could definitely see Sony doing a Playstation branded HMD with some sort of head and appendage tracking (e.g. integration with their next-gen motion control ), but it would be a purely optional accessory like Move or the PS branded 24" 3D Monitor. IIRC they mentioned they were toying with this as they did interviews about the HMZ-T1. Pretty sure it would have a relatively low FOV for use with any type of content though (like the T1). It'd be really great if they designed it to support different optics so you could potentially have a different FOV depending on preference/content--all the way up to 90° for specially designed PS4 games. 2 1080p OLED's on par with or surpassing the T1's and both a 50° and 90° setting, wow I would pay so much money for that.

[TTP]

I could definitely see Sony doing a Playstation branded HMD with some sort of head and appendage tracking (e.g. integration with their next-gen motion control ), but it would be a purely optional accessory like Move or the PS branded 24" 3D Monitor. IIRC they mentioned they were toying with this as they did interviews about the HMZ-T1. Pretty sure it would have a relatively low FOV for use with any type of content though (like the T1). It'd be really great if they designed it to support different optics so you could potentially have a different FOV depending on preference/content--all the way up to 90° for specially designed PS4 games.

The T1 was designed for watching movies. Hopefully the T2 or whatever takes games into more consideration.

[MrCunningham]

It sounds great but I'm waiting for the 2.0 version No offense but it's a kit, "some assembly required" and probably solder too And then theres the software: the only game guaranteed to work is Doom3, a game I only played once and never again Again it's a great idea but it's too early for me

This project isn't really being aimed at your average Joe-Blow gamer. As Carmack has said in previous videos and demonstrations for this, he plans on releasing it an open source GNU-like kit for the PC modding community and DIY "garage-gamers". He hopes that the modding community will take his work and try to improve upon it themselves and share their findings and advancements with other modders/ groups over the net. He thinks that by putting a VR headset kit like this out into the wild for people to play around with, it will help the technology move forward.

The inclusion of Doom 3 is nothing more than demonstration software to show modders/ developers how the software could be used.

Though, here's hoping that if the project could take off in popularity, they will release some pre-built headsets in the future. So far, I really do like everything I have read about this project. I don't think I would ever invest in it myself though, since I don't have the spare money or technical know how to do anything useful with it. But I do hope that it finds an audience and inspires more developers to make software that supports this.

[plagiarize]

so who else here is rolling the dice on this other than me? virtual reality is something i've always wanted to try, and the HMZs just cement that for me. the Rift is clearly going to be a bit of a step back IQ was from the HMZs, but i'm hoping I'll agree with Carmack who thinks that overall the experience of using the Rift beats the HMZs.

i'm prepared to invest in this tech, because i'm a true believer that this is absolutely the future, for at least first person shooters anyway. we have the technology. lets get this ball rolling! even if only really ID and Valve support it at first, that's two of the big four FPS companies technology wise (the other two would be Epic and Crytek for me, who apparently have been in talks with the people behind this so that seems promising).

[Durante]

As I said earlier, I'm buying. And I'll try to contribute to biclops if any games I want to try don't work.

I'm also a "believer", as you put it, in the VR future.

[1-D_FTW]

so who else here is rolling the dice on this other than me? virtual reality is something i've always wanted to try, and the HMZs just cement that for me. the Rift is clearly going to be a bit of a step back IQ was from the HMZs, but i'm hoping I'll agree with Carmack who thinks that overall the experience of using the Rift beats the HMZs. i'm prepared to invest in this tech, because i'm a true believer that this is absolutely the future, for at least first person shooters anyway. we have the technology. lets get this ball rolling! even if only really ID and Valve support it at first, that's two of the big four FPS companies technology wise (the other two would be Epic and Crytek for me, who apparently have been in talks with the people behind this so that seems promising).

I'm not gonna be there day one, but I'm a true believer in this and will be following closely. I think the open nature of this could be pretty special and expect some great things. And in a lot of ways, Carmack creating the no lag added processing is probably the most difficult hurdle. So I can most certainly see myself jumping in at some point.

The modular/kit design doesn't bother me one bit. Seems this is better for accommodating future screen advances. And let's face it, anyone who's worn an HMZ-T1 probably wishes it came in a kit so they could have assembled a more comfortable configuration anyhow.

[mrklaw]

Latency is an issue, and is being directly addressed with this kit. Do they have yaw tracking in this one yet?

How does aiming work? I know carmack was saying you have separate look/aim controls but how is that visualised on screen?

Sony's visor is more for movies - they should add a game mode to remove latency, it would be easy for them. But what about field of view? For games you want high FoV, for movies not so much. Is it possible to have adjustable?


I hope they get good support from developers/publishers. It should be fairly easy for them to patch in support (correcting for the fisheye would be the most difficult), and it could be an easy way to refresh older titles

[1-D_FTW]

Latency is an issue, and is being directly addressed with this kit.

Oh believe me. I know. Ask anyone in the HMZ thread :lol. They'll know my obsession with this. That's what I meant. Carmack has already successfully tackled the most difficult problem IMO. Everything else should be rolling downhill from there.

[mrklaw]

Oh believe me. I know. Ask anyone in the HMZ thread :lol. They'll know my obsession with this. That's what I meant. Carmack has already successfully tackled the most difficult problem IMO. Everything else should be rolling downhill from there.

I didn't think 50ms was such a big deal on displays - plenty of HDTVs have similar amounts. It's more of an issue in combination with motion tracking, as you add sensor lag to display lag and get lovely motion sickness

[Durante]

Sony's visor is more for movies - they should add a game mode to remove latency, it would be easy for them. But what about field of view? For games you want high FoV, for movies not so much. Is it possible to have adjustable?

I think the "end-game" solution for that is having a virtual display for legacy content inside your VR. Of course, the first iteration of the Rift won't ave the necessary resolution for that, but with >1080p per eye...

[1-D_FTW]

I didn't think 50ms was such a big deal on displays - plenty of HDTVs have similar amounts. It's more of an issue in combination with motion tracking, as you add sensor lag to display lag and get lovely motion sickness

It all depends on how sensitive you are. Most tvs are competely off limits for me for this very reason. And I knew the HMZ was outside of my acceptable barrier (which I personally set at 32ms), but could never prove it until Carmack posted the actual numbers.

The other thing to remember is: 3D adds lag just from the very fact you must use v-sync. And who knows if there's other additional lag from 3D rendering. All I know is that for certain console games designed around high lag environments, it was fine. But for games that expected low lag displays (like PC exclusives I tried), my brain had a total disconnect with what was going on and I found those games unplayable.

[dark10x]

Maybe but I spend a little time on MTBS3D forum and Palmer knows his stuff. I don't think he would do this if those issues weren't addressed.

I don't think he has a choice.

The display resolution IS low and LCDs simply are not as well suited to this. It seems like a stopgap to me.

OLED is a better solution and could definitely work without introducing lag. The reason that there is latency present with the HMZ-T1 has nothing to do with the fact that it uses OLEDs.

I do think the project would cost a lot more if OLEDs were used instead, though, but I'm hoping he gets to that point. The Palmer headset may have low latency, but even the very best LCD panels still produce image blurring more severe than an OLED display.

I find it odd that Doom 3 of all games is the game being used to demonstrate this display. Doom 3 is one of those games that just doesn't look right on an LCD due to the poor contrast ratio. Only a high precision local dimming model can do it justice. Doom 3 uses so many areas that are devoid of shadow detail that you end up with glowing areas without any detail on an LCD. Doom 3 was designed for a CRT and it just happens to work well with a Kuro plasma and a OLED displays as well. Most other plasmas and LCDs just don't fit the game. That's my feeling anyway.

Sony's visor is more for movies - they should add a game mode to remove latency, it would be easy for them. But what about field of view? For games you want high FoV, for movies not so much. Is it possible to have adjustable?

That's the main thing I'd like to see. It would be amazing if you could flip the optics to display an image like the Palmer headset or more like the HMZ-T1. The wide FOV in the Palmer headset would limit the usefulness of the display so having both options would be fantastic.

[plagiarize]

I didn't think 50ms was such a big deal on displays - plenty of HDTVs have similar amounts. It's more of an issue in combination with motion tracking, as you add sensor lag to display lag and get lovely motion sickness

Carmack said something about this in one of the interviews he did at E3 which really sums up his feelings on display lag. i'm paraphrasing:

"I can get a packet of data from my computer in America to a computer in Europe faster than I can get an image out of my graphics card onto a consumer TV in the room with me."

when you put it like that, 50 ms does sound ridiculously long doesn't it? the lag on the HMZs doesn't bother me personally, but totally. it needs to be fixed. i no longer think it's good enough after hearing him say that, even if i'm okay with it.

for this, i'm with everyone else. it needs to feel as if i'm just looking around naturally or what's the point?

I find it odd that Doom 3 of all games is the game being used to demonstrate this display. Doom 3 is one of those games that just doesn't look right on an LCD due to the poor contrast ratio. Only a high precision local dimming model can do it justice. Doom 3 uses so many areas that are devoid of shadow detail that you end up with glowing areas without any detail on an LCD. Doom 3 was designed for a CRT and it just happens to work well with a Kuro plasma and a OLED displays as well. Most other plasmas and LCDs just don't fit the game. That's my feeling anyway.

unlike my HMZs which i'm sure i'll be keeping for a good time, i'm not expecting to have this early model for long. obviously Doom 3 is being used to demonstrate it because John was already elbow deep in reworking the code, so it just made sense for him to do it. a dark game like Doom 3 will still present much better 3D than a 3DTV given that you're getting all the light going to each eye, and given that high contrast situations make for pretty bad ghosting. the IQ will be way behind playing it on the HMZs, but again i'm hopeful that i'll agree with the people that have tried the game on both who so far all seem to agree that its better on the Rift overall.

this device isn't the end game. it's the opening salvo. nutcases like those of us who are going to pick one up, are trying to be the foundation of users who help bring about the latter versions that have 1080p or higher OLED displays. and i'll be jumping ship to such displays when they become a real product. Carmack loves the displays in the HMZs, he just hates that he's stuck going through all the processing which is arguably unnescessary for a 720p native display.

[Reallink]

Eurogamer recently posted one of Carmack's entire interviews. Nuggets of worth include display specifics. First iteration is apparently planning to use a 6" 1280x800 LCD (so 640x800 per eye). Carmack says he expects 1080p displays by the end of the year and 2.5k displays in 2013, so the display and optics will presumably be upgradable. He also worked up some hardware or firmware or something to drive OLED's at 120Hz with 0 latentcy and no processing. He's trying to get Sony to implement it in (I assume) a future HMZ-T2.

Gamespy has also added a number of new details. The unit should weigh ~0.6lbs, it accepts HDMI/DVI/VGA input, and there will be an optional wireless solution with sub-1ms of latency to untether the HMD.

[plagiarize]

Eurogamer recently posted one of Carmack's entire interviews. Nuggets of worth include display specifics. First iteration is apparently planning to use a 6" 1280x800 LCD (so 640x800 per eye). Carmack says he expects 1080p displays by the end of the year and 2.5k displays in 2013, so the display and optics will presumably be upgradable. He also worked up some hardware or firmware or something to drive OLED's at 120Hz with 0 latentcy and no processing. He's trying to get Sony to implement it in (I assume) a future HMZ-T2. Gamespy has also added a number of new details. The unit should weigh ~0.6lbs, it accepts HDMI/DVI/VGA input, and there will be an optional wireless solution with sub-1ms of latency to untether the HMD.

intriguing. not sure i want to go untethered, but is the device battery powered by default?

[mrklaw]

intriguing. not sure i want to go untethered, but is the device battery powered by default?

untethered would free you up to move more easily. Could power with a belt-mounted battery pack etc.

looking forward to seeing developments on this. Don't have a gaming PC so won't be jumping on the first version, but the consumer version with >1080p per eye sounds fantastic. that would let you punch out a smaller window in the middle for movies (lower FoV needed) and still be usable.

[Durante]

0 latency 120 Hz OLED would be the ultimate gaming display device. So they'll probably not build it -- why would you ever upgrade again?

By the way, those "new" details in the Gamespy article have been on the official Rift page for over a month.

[1-D_FTW]

Eurogamer recently posted one of Carmack's entire interviews. Nuggets of worth include display specifics. First iteration is apparently planning to use a 6" 1280x800 LCD (so 640x800 per eye). Carmack says he expects 1080p displays by the end of the year and 2.5k displays in 2013, so the display and optics will presumably be upgradable. He also worked up some hardware or firmware or something to drive OLED's at 120Hz with 0 latentcy and no processing. He's trying to get Sony to implement it in (I assume) a future HMZ-T2. Gamespy has also added a number of new details. The unit should weigh ~0.6lbs, it accepts HDMI/DVI/VGA input, and there will be an optional wireless solution with sub-1ms of latency to untether the HMD.

"Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD," Luckey states. "That can happen in 2013!"

The day it happens, sign me up!

[plagiarize]

the official site is currently a place holder page: http://oculusvr.com/

i'm taking this as an optimistic sign that the site is either about to be massively updated or moving to bigger, better, places. fingers crossed we get the ball really rolling today or tomorrow.

[plagiarize]

bumping this for anyone who cares.

Going to reply to everyone's questions tomorrow morning, but I am to have to have to delay a little bit more. I have to fly up to Washington for something that relates to the Kickstarter. Believe me, I don't want to delay any more than you guys do, but things keep coming into play that make the potential of this project so much better. Not talking about tiny improvements where you eventually have to stop nitpicking, either, I mean REALLY big things. z I am putting together some teasers for you guys, anyone want to see a render of the new Rift design?

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopi...efca&start=780

it sounds positive if you ask me.

[Scalemail Ted]

Really looking forward to seeing this kickstarter start

[ido]

Palmer is the shit.

He purchased a highend HMD from me a while back(Virtual Research V8) and modded my Liquid Image MRG 2.2 HMD by replacing the screen and optics. The MRG HMD has easily over 100 degree FOV, but lack of 3D. He put a 1080p display inside of it, though.

And this was a couple years back. Since that time he has gotten a government job working almost exclusively with VR, testing out super highend HMDs, etc. His knowledge on VR is pretty vast, and I am getting in on one of the PRE-kickstarter units.

This is the first real step in the right direction for VR.

[Afrikan]

"I have to fly up to Washington for something that relates to the Kickstarter. "

not to jump to conclusions...but.....Washington?.....Microsoft?......ULTIMATE Kickstarter Donor? Exclusive? Bundled with 720 at launch????? :o

[ido]

not to jump to conclusions...but.....Washington?.....Microsoft?......ULTIMATE Kickstarter Donor? Exclusive? Bundled with 720 at launch????? :o

I doubt it. But damn it this kind of tech needs support.

The Rift isn't even at a consumer level really. I do have my fingers crossed about Valve, though.

[plagiarize]

not to jump to conclusions...but.....Washington?.....Microsoft?......ULTIMATE Kickstarter Donor? Exclusive? Bundled with 720 at launch????? :o

NOA and Valve are also up in Washington. just food for thought. there's a bunch of talent up there.

I doubt it. But damn it this kind of tech needs support. The Rift isn't even at a consumer level really. I do have my fingers crossed about Valve, though.

Valve support all kinds of crazy shit, like that force feedback 3D input device thing Novint made and Razor's motion controller.

[Vesper73]

"I have to fly up to Washington for something that relates to the Kickstarter. "

This is really starting to become interesting. Watch this space. VR is coming!