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poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 04:39 PM)
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I said I’ll provide more information and proof about what is happening during the attempts at a revolution in Greece (called ‘riots’).I know I’m late a couple of days, sorry for that. I’m also trying to put together a large post about some of what is happening but I have to compose pieces from hundreds of articles and posts, I have more than 150 open tabs and chrome keeps crashing.

Right now a woman is perched on a balcony to commit suicide because she is being fired according to TROIKA demands of public sector shrinkage, and NO TV CHANNEL, NOT ONE, is showing it, while it’s live on the internet. But that’s for another thread.

So, certainly not as detailed as I had in mind, but I admit most of my time regarding the Greek issue is spent on Greek sites and forums trying to inform.

PLEASE READ THROUGH THE COMMENTS AND WATCH AT LEAST SOME OF THE VIDEOS, OR IT WILL BE DIFFICULT TO REALIZE WHAT HAPPENED.

Here the crowd is starting to gather. All those people were there by 17:25 or so, when the unprovoked police attack took place.



You can’t imagine how many people gathered. The streets to the left and right were filled, up to the next square. The roads leading down from the parliament were also filled. There were hundreds of thousands, with TV media talking about 15-50,000 depending. And they stayed, up to midnight. Thousands left and thousands came. Blogs and sources are claiming more than 1 million in total. If the crowd had been allowed to gather half of Athens would have been on the streets, the dictatorship-government would have been over.
That’s why the orders to vacate the streets and squares was given.
Few images before the police attack:







Minutes before the attack the living legends of Greece arrive: Mikis Theodorakis and Manolis Glezos. Both around 90 years old. Both fighters in the resistance against the Nazis and fighters against the military Junta. Theodorakis is also a world renowned composer, while Glezos is the one who took the Nazi flag down from Acropolis while under German occupation.



They start giving speeches after having stated to the riot police that they are there with peaceful intentions. The leader of the Greek police union is with them amongst the crowd.


IT IS THEN THAT SUDDENLY, THE RIOT POLICE, THROW CHEMICALS TOWARDS THEODORAKIS AND GLEZOS:

As far as I, and thousands others, are concerned, that was attempted murder against these fragile but heroic 90 year old men. Glezos is later rushed to the parliament hospital.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEV97gDfnng – Here is the start. The police throw chemicals while Theodorakis is speaking to the people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCjceYa1YLU – Seconds after from a few meters further behind, after the first chemicals.




That’s when the crowd is enraged, and at the same time as if on cue, the hooded ones, the “koukouloforoi”, emerge from a side street and start a barrage of Molotov cocktails and even flare guns towards the riot police. I will briefly talk about the constant scourge of Greek protests, the hooded ones later.




The police answers as always by not attacking to arrest the hooded ones, but by starting what can only be described as chemical warfare against the protesters en masse. These are not simple tear gases. These are substances banned from use against civilian population, suffocating, burning up your larynx, eyes, what have you, and generally dangerous. These are the same chemicals that killed a man during the October “riots”.

This 8 minute video has footage from the day, I find to be generally indicative of the war like and terrifying atmosphere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XJODIjZtxM





The following are videos from various side streets and smaller squares around Syntagma square were hunted people gathered to avoid the chemicals thrown.
You can see in these videos that people are from all walks of life and ages, and not organized terrorists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg5X77x8WYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlxlvbrd_Po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgMovSoVyI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8g2eFpwFA

I think this footage is close to the events of the riot police throwing more chemicals in the narrow streets which I personally experienced. It was even worst in narrower streets but most people were too panicked trying to survive to film I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttAMGwy2xmE

A point I have to make, and which I personally find perfectly natural, is that after 2 years of such violence along with humiliating and impoverishing measures of the TROIKA, some of the normal people have started to cheer for the hooded ones. Some even throw stuff at the police after they have experienced the brutality of the chemicals. However the police response is again extreme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIhhsXUDcVk

In this video the motorcycle riding police, the DELTA and the DIAS (Zeus) units, are going about terror tactics of running through crowds as happened before. Someone attempts to kick a passing motorcycle. As a response the next coming bike tries to ram innocent people next to him. When they fall down you can see the people afraid of a single police officer. That’s because they’re all everyday, ‘simple’ people. Soon after you’ll see the police spraying and shooting chemicals at the gathered crowd again, just for good measure.

That’s a 'beautiful' one from Thessaloniki, showing the police herding peaceful protesters with sprays of chemicals, like cockroaches:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xol...y-yyyyyyy_news






PS: I was accused of being overly melodramatic in my first hand description from Athens:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=17

I had traveled hundreds of kms to be there and protest for my country, and had just returned after hours of chemicals thrown at me and running amidst chaos. Now that I read over it more calm, I feel that I was 100% objective, this IS how it was, and anyone accusing me from the comfort of his home of being a drama queen is welcome to come here during the next protest.
poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 04:42 PM)
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Hooded ones – Koukouloforoi


First of all, the existence of a very specific group called hooded ones is not up for debate. The police and the government recognizes them, but calls them anarchist block that “must be arrested” (they simply can’t…).
While an anarchist block does exist here, the parallel existence of provocateurs is at this time accepted by literally everyone in Greece.

Here are some pictures and videos of hooded ones and their actions:

This is from last year’s “riots”. Police dressed as hooded ones actually caught on camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCvb2...ayer_embedded#!

These are images from this Sunday (February 12), showing their leader organizing them and ordering amidst chaos:






A post of mine with photos of the June “riots”, showing police talking with a ‘hooded one’ who also carries police issue flash-bang grenades on his belt:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...0&postcount=70

There is also an interesting quote from Amnesty International in the post above.

Why the fires?

Well, the fires set by the provocateur hooded ones, and almost certainly not the anarchist block (I won’t even answer to ridiculous claims that they were set by normal protesting people), serve various purposes:

1. All the foreign media now show scenes of destructions in Greece instead of scenes of a million people protesting the pillaging and occupation of the TROIKA. The theme seems to be: “lol stupid Greeks burning their country when it needs money” in some cases.

2. People are then scared to go to these protests since these are frightening scenes.

3. The destruction can be used to pass restrictive legislation due to “emergency” events. Right now the chief of police is talking with the politicians responsible for public order in coming up with laws restricting protests so they can arrest and terrorize people.
Last edited by poisonelf; 02-15-2012 at 04:48 PM.
ezrarh
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(02-15-2012, 04:48 PM)
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Thank you for posting this, this is very interesting to me. Police pretending to be hood rats wouldn't be that surprising. Best of luck to the Greek people and I hope you stay safe.
Sh1ner
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(02-15-2012, 04:52 PM)
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I been waiting for this thread poisonelf, must have been a bitch to compile. We definitely appreciate it, will have a full read when I get home. Just at work at the mo.
Mael
Member
(02-15-2012, 04:54 PM)
On the matter of Greece, bailout and the likes I think my position is quite clear so I don't feel like repeating myself here (I found it a lil bit overblown sometimes and not our problem at other times).
Still, this is fucking shameful!
The fact that the police would act in such a way to try and basically put people in danger!
What I mean is I'm shocked.
This needs to be known on a large scale or something!
SolKane
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(02-15-2012, 05:13 PM)
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Great thread poisonelf, stay safe...
planar1280
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(02-15-2012, 05:16 PM)
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could someone explain the notion behind the riots/revolution? What would the greek people rather have the government do?
shinobi602
(02-15-2012, 05:19 PM)
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Thank you for this thread. I hope people will open their eyes more and realize these people are not just hoodlums or thugs looking to create chaos. They want their voices heard, just like in the Middle East, and the leaders and governments know they can't shut them up except by force.

I hope they succeed. Best of luck to the Greek people. Truly fucking sickening that cops dress up as normal people to incite riots. I can't believe how corrupt every damn police agency in the world is.
somesayyea
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(02-15-2012, 05:23 PM)
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Thanks for posting and keeping us up to date on what's happening in Greece. The media (at least here in Canada) has been doing a pretty shitty job at covering these events.

Quite honestly, I'm not totally sure what to say...the situation is beyond disgusting as ordinary Greeks are being forced to pay for the abuses of their elite and those of the "developed" world.

Keep on fighting, keep on resisting!
Suairyu
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(02-15-2012, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by planar1280

could someone explain the notion behind the riots/revolution? What would the greek people rather have the government do?

Not be corrupt sacks of shit, I imagine.

Fixing the economy might also help. The extreme austerity measures sure as fuck aren't going to do that.
Rourkey
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(02-15-2012, 05:26 PM)
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Story on the woman threatening to commit suicide

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0..._1278857.html?
poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 05:27 PM)
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Thank you to anyone supporting this struggle we're suddenly in. Actually, that's what Greece needs now. Support and awareness of the real situation.

The central issue of the mega-post I'm trying to create about the Greek situation is actually this, the incredible difference between reality and media representation of it and skewing of public opinion.

Originally Posted by planar1280

could someone explain the notion behind the riots/revolution? What would the greek people rather have the government do?

That would need a behemoth of a reply, which I'm trying to create as an article.

To be grossly brief, our government is not elected but imposed and led by a banker, the corruption of all politicians is to ridiculous extremes, and TROIKA measures as well EU leaders' behavior is humiliating and cause a humanitarian crisis here.

So, again ridiculously briefly, what we want is for the thieves and traitors to pay, to have their assets confiscated, to go to international law and erase the illegal part of our debt (which is what the EU banks tremble about happening and why they are substituting our debt with new IMF and ECT debt), hold elections with a rational system, oust the current German commissioners stationed here as overseers, lower the immense, murderous taxation (yeah I know, you've heard the exact opposite), reclaim our sovereignty, save our national assets from seizure which the TROIKA memorandum allows, provide for the poor and homeless, reform the public sector, and work towards development.

I might be forgetting some (a lot), but that really is a different, much larger thread that needs to be made.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
(02-15-2012, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by planar1280

could someone explain the notion behind the riots/revolution? What would the greek people rather have the government do?

Be replaced by something respectable, I imagine. So they don't have to suffer for government and banking debt and can try to rebuild something that serves them instead of takes.
Last edited by BobsRevenge; 02-15-2012 at 05:33 PM.
reggieandTFE
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(02-15-2012, 05:31 PM)
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Thank you so much for posting this. I'm taking a break at work and will have a more thoughtful reply later when I can digest your entire post. I hope the normal GAF reactionaries haven't destroyed this thread by then.
poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rourkey

Story on the woman threatening to commit suicide

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0..._1278857.html?

Thank you.

It's on huffington post and for Greek media it is not happening.

I think we can almost officially call it a dictatorship here.

I hope she'll be OK, I couldn't even watch the live feed because I felt so sad and enraged. If they dared show this on TV the real revolution would have come sooner than expected.
Dash27
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(02-15-2012, 05:33 PM)
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You contend it's the "hooded ones" who start it, and then the police react. So the public must hate the "hooded ones" since they trigger the violence?
sankt-Antonio
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(02-15-2012, 05:34 PM)
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Are elections still happening in april? Could these even change anything? I was under the impression that whatever party wins the elections has to push these massive taxes etc. no matter what.
Dash27
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(02-15-2012, 05:36 PM)
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So, again ridiculously briefly, what we want is for the thieves and traitors to pay, to have their assets confiscated, to go to international law and erase the illegal part of our debt

I know this is probably a long answer too, but briefly, who are the thieves and traitors. The government? banks? businesses?
poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dash27

You contend it's the "hooded ones" who start it, and then the police react. So the public must hate the "hooded ones" since they trigger the violence?

The situation with the hooded ones is very complicated.

Yes, the public generally hates them, and each time there are calls to guard the protests against them. But when the time comes who can go against 200-300 trained at city riots men, armed with crowbars and molotv bombs?
In theory you'll say "hey, if 100,000 rush them it's over". In practice who are the ones in front who will do so and receive the first attacks?

But it's not only that. The hooded ones belong to various camps. There are the anarchists, there are the provocateurs, and lately there are the illegal immigrants dressing up as koukouloforoi to loot stores.

People hated both of the first 2 groups (the 3rd one didn't exist until now).

But after endless police brutality, after hoping each time that the police will not protect the traitors and then being proven wrong, knowing that in the parliament the traitors are voting for your slow death while laughing while the police terrorizes you and throws chemicals at you... well some people are now cheering for the hooded ones because they attack the police.
Out of pure frustration and hopelessness.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Dash27

I know this is probably a long answer too, but briefly, who are the thieves and traitors. The government? banks? businesses?

In this case I was referring to the Greek politicians, and since you mention it, yes, the bankers also. Specific bankers who essentially control most politicians. You can't imagine the list of scandals Greece has gone through just the past few years.
06nbarnhill
Member
(02-15-2012, 05:41 PM)
It all sounds like a terrible situation to me.

However, while corruption surely is an issue, I still see the austerity as necessary from what I know of the situation. Doing nothing is not an option. I really don't see what the government could do differently at this point. I mean those against the moves, do they have a plan, "stop corruption" is meaningless without actually evidence of WHAT the corruption is and HOW fixing it would fix the countries problems. Its like people is the US who bitch and moan about corruption and pork spending.....when it is only a couple % points of the total budget and even if it all went away wouldn't change anything for the big picture.

IMO it this point their best options is to pass the austerity, hit rock bottom, and start building from their. Hell.....I am not sure there are other options.
poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 05:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by 06nbarnhill

It all sounds like a terrible situation to me.

However, while corruption surely is an issue, I still see the austerity as necessary from what I know of the situation. Doing nothing is not an option. I really don't see what the government could do differently at this point. I mean those against the moves, do they have a plan, "stop corruption" is meaningless without actually evidence of WHAT the corruption is and HOW fixing it would fix the countries problems. Its like people is the US who bitch and moan about corruption and pork spending.....when it is only a couple % points of the total budget and even if it all went away wouldn't change anything for the big picture.

IMO it this point their best options is to pass the austerity, hit rock bottom, and start building from their. Hell.....I am not sure there are other options.

I don't really disagree with you, it's just that you lack a lot of information. Just wanted to say that, yes, there is TONS of evidence about a multitude of scandals involving virtually every thing you can think of.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
(02-15-2012, 05:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by 06nbarnhill

It all sounds like a terrible situation to me.

However, while corruption surely is an issue, I still see the austerity as necessary from what I know of the situation. Doing nothing is not an option. I really don't see what the government could do differently at this point. I mean those against the moves, do they have a plan, "stop corruption" is meaningless without actually evidence of WHAT the corruption is and HOW fixing it would fix the countries problems. Its like people is the US who bitch and moan about corruption and pork spending.....when it is only a couple % points of the total budget and even if it all went away wouldn't change anything for the big picture.

IMO it this point their best options is to pass the austerity, hit rock bottom, and start building from their. Hell.....I am not sure there are other options.

The problem is that austerity comes before human lives right now. Corrupt banking and bookkeeping practices are prioritized ahead of real people losing their hope for a future. Greece's human capitol is in the process of leaving the country. And the austerity isn't working in Greece or Portugal. It's contracting the economies to the point where paying off the debt would take forever, and debt is actually increasing.

At this point it is becoming a moral issue. When you say "hit rock bottom" you are literally talking about people becoming homeless and starving (possibly to death) and such, so you have to be aware of that. That's the long term solution, so it isn't even temporary.

It's fucked up man, all ways around.
kruis
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(02-15-2012, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by poisonelf

I don't really disagree with you, it's just that you lack a lot of information. Just wanted to say that, yes, there is TONS of evidence about a multitude of scandals involving virtually every thing you can think of.

So what. You still gotta pay back your debts. Or do you think the rest of Europe can conjure 130 billion Euro out of thin air? The current situation is what you get when corruption is ingrained throughout Greek society. Just be glad a great portion of the Greek debt is already written off as a loss, or you'd be far worse off.
badcrumble
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(02-15-2012, 05:52 PM)
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That's the essence of the problem: austerity doesn't work. What the EU is trying to do is terrorize Greece into funneling just about all of the value its economy creates for the next several decades straight into German banks, effectively chaining its youngest generation into a life of indentured servitude, all because finance capital gambled their money away and doesn't want to take the rap for aforementioned gambling. It's like the bailouts in the US, except much, much, much worse.

Originally Posted by kruis

So what. You still gotta pay back your debts. Or do you think the rest of Europe can conjure 130 billion Euro out of thin air? The current situation is what you get when corruption is ingrained throughout Greek society. Just be glad a great portion of the Greek debt is already written off as a loss, or you'd be far worse off.

Bigotry and economic ignorance like this isn't helping the situation, either.
06nbarnhill
Member
(02-15-2012, 05:53 PM)

Originally Posted by BobsRevenge

The problem is that austerity comes before human lives right now. Corrupt banking and bookkeeping practices are prioritized ahead of real people losing their hope for a future. Greece's human capitol is in the process of leaving the country. And the austerity isn't working in Greece or Portugal. It's contracting the economies to the point where paying off the debt would take forever, and debt is actually increasing.

At this point it is becoming a moral issue. When you say "hit rock bottom" you are literally talking about people becoming homeless and starving (possibly to death) and such, so you have to be aware of that. That's the long term solution, so it isn't even temporary.

It's fucked up man, all ways around.

Ya I suppose I am still a bit blinded. I kinda clump most of Europe together and my last memory of Euro riots was the French rioting over raising retirement age a tiny amount......to an age still laughably young compared to the US. Worthy of a "First World Problems" GIF even.

I am not following Greece closely enough at the moment to have a real opinion on how reasonable (or not) the austerity is.
Suairyu
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(02-15-2012, 05:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by kruis

So what. You still gotta pay back your debts. Or do you think the rest of Europe can conjure 130 billion Euro out of thin air? The current situation is what you get when corruption is ingrained throughout Greek society. Just be glad a great portion of the Greek debt is already written off as a loss, or you'd be far worse off.

Of course they have to pay back their debts. The problem is the way their country is being run right now that isn't going to happen. Greece needs competent leadership to make the economy grow. Once they actually start making money, I'm sure the level-headed Greek majority would not object to paying back their debts.

Force them to pay back now and they'll just bankrupt as a nation, default on all their debts and destablise the Euro zone even further.
ksan
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(02-15-2012, 05:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by badcrumble

That's the essence of the problem: austerity doesn't work. What the EU is trying to do is terrorize Greece into funneling just about all of the value its economy creates for the next several decades straight into German banks, effectively chaining its youngest generation into a life of indentured servitude, all because finance capital gambled their money away and doesn't want to take the rap for aforementioned gambling. It's like the bailouts in the US, except much, much, much worse.

Why do you believe that?
Ooccoo
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(02-15-2012, 06:02 PM)
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Situations like these is why I think our species is retarded. You'd think with millions of years of evolution we'd be able to live together and develop a world. Instead it's just the same old pattern repeating itself through centuries.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
(02-15-2012, 06:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by kruis

So what. You still gotta pay back your debts. Or do you think the rest of Europe can conjure 130 billion Euro out of thin air? The current situation is what you get when corruption is ingrained throughout Greek society. Just be glad a great portion of the Greek debt is already written off as a loss, or you'd be far worse off.

You act like this fixes all the corruption, enables them to pay off their debts reasonably, or the international community has stopped predatory lending/investment practices.

These things aren't true. It's cruel to believe they are.

Originally Posted by ksan

Why do you believe that?

Resulting economic constriction makes it so that tax revenue falls so much that potentially debt stays stable or increases instead of decreasing.
Last edited by BobsRevenge; 02-15-2012 at 06:08 PM.
StuKen
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(02-15-2012, 06:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by kruis

So what. You still gotta pay back your debts. Or do you think the rest of Europe can conjure 130 billion Euro out of thin air? The current situation is what you get when corruption is ingrained throughout Greek society. Just be glad a great portion of the Greek debt is already written off as a loss, or you'd be far worse off.


I think you will find that the ECB has conjured up some 400billion to mop up various EU member states bond sales on secondary markets in an effort to keep their yields in reasonable ranges. Indicative of the whole situation really institutional investors must be protected at all costs. If that requires reducing 50 million people to indefinite penury so fucking be it.
badcrumble
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(02-15-2012, 06:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by ksan

Why do you believe that?

Austerity is predicated on the false belief that wealth actually trickles down and therefore that the last thing we can do to fix a budget 'crisis' is to raise taxes on the wealthy, and that cutting services has to happen first.
ksan
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(02-15-2012, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by BobsRevenge

Resulting economic constriction makes it so that tax revenue falls so much that potentially debt stays stable or increases instead of decreasing.

Do you have any real world examples of this happening?

Originally Posted by badcrumble

Austerity is predicated on the false belief that wealth actually trickles down and therefore that the last thing we can do to fix a budget 'crisis' is to raise taxes on the wealthy, and that cutting services has to happen first.

What does that have to do with austerity at all?
Austerity doesn't necessarily imply that.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
(02-15-2012, 06:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by ksan

Do you have any real world examples of this happening?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/bu..._r=1&ref=world

Published yesterday. Portugal has been playing ball and their debt is increasing.
ksan
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(02-15-2012, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by BobsRevenge

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/bu..._r=1&ref=world

Published yesterday. Portugal has been playing ball and their debt is increasing.

Interesting. I would argue that the Nordic banking crisis and the Baltic financial crisis point toward austerity working if done right though.

And Portugal is not a clear cut case of austerity failing yet; too little time has passed. However, as pointed out in the article the indications aren't very good.
The problem might very well lie in the extremely high debt-to-GDP ratio from before the crisis even began.
Last edited by ksan; 02-15-2012 at 06:31 PM.
Black-Box
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(02-15-2012, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by poisonelf

The situation with the hooded ones is very complicated.

Yes, the public generally hates them, and each time there are calls to guard the protests against them. But when the time comes who can go against 200-300 trained at city riots men, armed with crowbars and molotv bombs?
In theory you'll say "hey, if 100,000 rush them it's over". In practice who are the ones in front who will do so and receive the first attacks?

But it's not only that. The hooded ones belong to various camps. There are the anarchists, there are the provocateurs, and lately there are the illegal immigrants dressing up as koukouloforoi to loot stores.

People hated both of the first 2 groups (the 3rd one didn't exist until now).

But after endless police brutality, after hoping each time that the police will not protect the traitors and then being proven wrong, knowing that in the parliament the traitors are voting for your slow death while laughing while the police terrorizes you and throws chemicals at you... well some people are now cheering for the hooded ones because they attack the police.
Out of pure frustration and hopelessness.

EDIT:

In this case I was referring to the Greek politicians, and since you mention it, yes, the bankers also. Specific bankers who essentially control most politicians. You can't imagine the list of scandals Greece has gone through just the past few years.

its a shame that the police get the hate.

I look it as, the police are protecting the protestors. because so far no one has used guns, but if the police fail, the government could hire people to do there job better
StuKen
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(02-15-2012, 06:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by ksan

Do you have any real world examples of this happening?

Ireland, 2010-2011, 17% year on year tax take increase, all of which, which was entirely negated by the debt servicing from the bailout. All the while GDP collapsing.

Its the same for all the little piggies. Its not running and standing still, its running and going backwards.
FGMPR
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(02-15-2012, 06:27 PM)
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Superb post. I wish you and the Greek people luck in the struggle, Poisonelf.
Dreams-Visions
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(02-15-2012, 06:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by BobsRevenge

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/bu..._r=1&ref=world

Published yesterday. Portugal has been playing ball and their debt is increasing.

and don't forget Haiti.
poisonelf
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(02-15-2012, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Black-Box

its a shame that the police get the hate.

I look it as, the police are protecting the protestors. because so far no one has used guns, but if the police fail, the government could hire people to do there job better

Man, did you go through the OP? It all started when -for no reason at all- threw chemicals at two symbolic 90 year old men as is evident on many videos.

They then went on to hunt, injure, and terrorize people who very obviously had nothing to do with the trouble makers.

They have their very specific orders, and they have no trouble following them it seems.
WeAreStarStuff
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(02-15-2012, 06:31 PM)
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Thanks for this topic and your informative posts. My thoughts are with you and my fellow humans seeking peace and democracy in Greece. I know there is a constant stream of propaganda and lies on the MSM over here; I see past the BS and feel for the plight of your people.
Tryckser
Member
(02-15-2012, 06:34 PM)
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I don't understand pictures like this:


Why mad at Germans? Yeah, we give you the "rules" what your country should do with the money, but on the other side we pay a shitload of money to save your country from total bancrupt.

And yeah, it doesn't go too well when we have to work until 67 (increased from 65 a few years ago, and 70 already in discussion) an we hear things like you can go into pension with 55 after working 37 years....
And when we then see pictures like this in our media, of course we think "lol greece, we pay for you and you hate us for it".
And yes, I know this is a very narrow view and I should probably see all sides, I am just saying what comes through here in Germany and what most people think, and pictures like that surely won't help your cause.
LowEndTorque
Member
(02-15-2012, 07:05 PM)
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Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

The Tunisians, Egyptians and Libyans just overthrew iron-fisted dictators who ruled through terror, fear and were willing to torture and/or slaughter their own people. The Syrians are fighting an astonishingly brutal one right now. While the situation in Greece isn't really comparable, I really hope the Greek people don't give up until they win. There are people need to be held accountable. It's unacceptable that the Greek people pay the price while the guilty ones walk off scott free. I'm loving the recent trend of people power overcoming corrupt elites/dictators and I hope for a positive outcome for Greece and the Greek people.
Last edited by LowEndTorque; 02-15-2012 at 07:08 PM.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
(02-15-2012, 07:16 PM)
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ei poisonelf, boras na me milas, pou simainei h lexi 'koukouloforoi' ? it sounds sick as hell, like a sneaky bastard


but this is a great thread, My heart goes out to the greek people.

to those who can read German, this FAZ article is really great; http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaf...-11645836.html

it is about an analysis of Greece not far from her Independance where the observer stated; Greece exists now only to pay debt which will never be paid off. The situation hasn't changed
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
(02-15-2012, 07:18 PM)
BobsRevenge's Avatar

Originally Posted by Tryckser

I don't understand pictures like this:
[IM G]http://i.imgur.com/Bb4yT.jpg[/IMG]

Why mad at Germans? Yeah, we give you the "rules" what your country should do with the money, but on the other side we pay a shitload of money to save your country from total bancrupt.

And yeah, it doesn't go too well when we have to work until 67 (increased from 65 a few years ago, and 70 already in discussion) an we hear things like you can go into pension with 55 after working 37 years....
And when we then see pictures like this in our media, of course we think "lol greece, we pay for you and you hate us for it".
And yes, I know this is a very narrow view and I should probably see all sides, I am just saying what comes through here in Germany and what most people think, and pictures like that surely won't help your cause.

First of all, don't confuse leadership with those represented. Don't take personal offense. No one should except for the actual people responsible for decisions and curruptions. You have to look at what is happening to people and figure out the best solutions with a bottom-up approach in mind.

I mean, on some level you have to accept that the German government, though it is trying, is not currently being as helpful as they should be because their methods are wrong. There should be a focus on shifting blame from governments and its people to the behaviors of corruption in those actually responsible.

The austerity isn't helping like anyone wanted it to, and the leadership in France and Germany should be held especially accountable for enforcing pro-business measures instead of looking out for actual human interests in a broad way. What is happening to Greece isn't good for Germany either, and you should be disappointed.

I'm disappointed with my government all the time over bullshit like this (American).
Last edited by BobsRevenge; 02-15-2012 at 07:21 PM.
Tryckser
Member
(02-15-2012, 07:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by BobsRevenge

First of all, don't confuse leadership with those represented. Don't take personal offense. No one should except for the actual people responsible for decisions and curruptions. You have to look at what is happening to people and figure out the best solutions with a bottom-up approach in mind.

I mean, on some level you have to accept that the German government, though it is trying, is not currently being as helpful as they should be because their methods are wrong. There should be a focus on shifting blame from governments and its people to the behaviors of corruption in those actually responsible.

The austerity isn't helping like anyone wanted it to, and the leadership in France and Germany should be held especially accountable for enforcing pro-business measures instead of looking out for actual human interests in a broad way. What is happening to Greece isn't good for Germany either, and you should be disappointed.

I'm disappointed with my government all the time over bullshit like this (American).

I understand what you are saying and I am not personally offended. I think what I wanted to say is, with pictures like these (and Germans are still very sensible about WW2), the general public of Germany will be offended and that won't help the cause of the Greece people. Especially because we (and with "we" I mean every single working German) are paying so that the Greece can have it better again.

That Merkel and other politicians make bullshit decisions is another thing.
Black-Box
Member
(02-15-2012, 07:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by poisonelf

Man, did you go through the OP? It all started when -for no reason at all- threw chemicals at two symbolic 90 year old men as is evident on many videos.

They then went on to hunt, injure, and terrorize people who very obviously had nothing to do with the trouble makers.

They have their very specific orders, and they have no trouble following them it seems.

trouble can look like anything, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, its not the cops fault.

is there orders to kill? no it isn't

There is a reason why people who cause trouble where masks.

but to me, I look at it as, cops are out numbered, you don't know whats going to happen. you do what you do to keep safe. Cops don't know who will cause terror, but when you are in a crowd of 1000's would you really take that chance?

also the 2 old guys, they didn't have to be there, they could of been at the back, and still would have the same power as being upfront, at that age, I wouldn't want them to be in the front lines, because a hundred other things could happen to them.

I picture worse things could happen if the police weren't even there.
Last edited by Black-Box; 02-15-2012 at 07:29 PM. Reason: add more
Alpha-Bromega
Member
(02-15-2012, 07:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Black-Box

trouble can look like anything, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, its not the cops fault.

is there orders to kill? no it isn't

There is a reason why people who cause trouble where masks.

but to me, I look at it as, cops are out numbered, you don't know whats going to happen. you do what you do to keep safe. Cops don't know who will cause terror, but when you are in a crowd of 1000's would you really take that chance?

WHAT ?

where is there a pressing need to use force to protect themselves? these are peaceful demonstrations out of clearly defined and seperated poopooforoi

but to me, I look at it as, cops are out numbered, you don't know whats going to happen. you do what you do to keep safe. Cops don't know who will cause terror, but when you are in a crowd of 1000's would you really take that chance?

cops don't know who will cause terror, so better to preemptively strike on peaceful protestors?
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
(02-15-2012, 07:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tryckser

I understand what you are saying and I am not personally offended. I think what I wanted to say is, with pictures like these (and Germans are still very sensible about WW2), the general public of Germany will be offended and that won't help the cause of the Greece people. Especially because we (and with "we" I mean every single working German) are paying so that the Greece can have it better again.

That Merkel and other politicians make bullshit decisions is another thing.

The Hitler staches are definitely really distasteful, I didn't notice that until you brought up WW2. :\
WARCOCK
BACH
(02-15-2012, 07:31 PM)
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It's disappointing to me that Europe is divided over this issue. There is this hypocrisy manifesting, where many franco-german leaders are advocating a strengthening of the financial unity in the Eurozone. This clearly cannot happen in a healthy fashion without a sort of cultural glue holding the continent together. Instead of showing solidarity with the greek people, the media in various countries choose to display them as lazy oafs for internal political purposes. How is the idea of Europe to survive? The stakes are high, a divided europe is a future irrelevant europe that is slave to the influence of greater external powers.


Good luck to the greeks, i hope your people is saved from the malice of the few.
Last edited by WARCOCK; 02-15-2012 at 07:41 PM.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
(02-15-2012, 07:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by WARCOCK

It's disappointing to me that Europe is divided over this issue. There is this hypocrisy manifesting, where many franco-german leaders are advocating a strengthening of the financial unity in the Eurozone. This clearly cannot happen in a healthy fashion without a sort of cultural glue holding the continent together. Instead of showing solidarity with the greek people, the media in various countries choose to display them as lazy oafs. How is the idea of Europe to survive? The stakes are high, a divided europe is a future irrelevant europe that is slave to the influence of greater external powers.


Good luck to the greeks, i hope your people is saved from the malice of the a few.

a disunited Europe is a weak Europe, but a fiscally fucked up and internally disunited Europe is just as bad.

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