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AuthenticM
Member
(10-04-2017, 05:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Funky Papa

Then you aren't paying any attention at all.

Which is par with the course in this whole mess.

The biggest problem is not even the referendum, but the fact that the Catalonian government was determined to launch an unilateral declaration of independence even before the referendum. To this point they engineered an spurious vote rife with irregularities in which the separatist side could only succeed.

Even if you exclude the Spanish Constitution and the legal argument the entire process is is a complete disaster. The Catalonian government went all the way to organise it, even if that meant breaking its own rules. Which it did plenty of times.

The usual retort is to claim that Rajoy could have negotiated a proper referendum and avoid this mess. That's a logical trap. It's simply not true. Article 2 of the Constitution makes that impossible. For that the current Spanish government, which doesn't even have the numbers to pass a new budget by itself, let alone pass critical legislation (or the will to entertain the separatist side), would have needed to rebuild the Constitution so Spain would have to aknowledge that its regions can simply break away after a vote. That's basically a non starter, not just for Spain, but basically for any country. And the separatist side knew it, so knowing that Rajoy would act like the malignant fool that he is, hastened a referendum, fingers crossed for a confrontation. At the end of the day, this is about a local government declaring itself in rebellion. No country is ever going to agree to that.

And it's not like Catalonian government is acting in representation of the majority of the population anyway.



According to the official numbers of the Catalonian government before the referendum only a minority of Catalonians (around 41% or so) wanted the break away from Spain. The 49% was on the remain side and wanted none of this.

Despite this, the Catalonian government decided to rally the masses, claiming that they were being silenced and hastened a referendum that was anything but democratic. Puigdemont and his allies made a mockery of the requirement of neutrality by continously campaigning for the "yes" side, used the resources of the government towards the same aims and mounted a process enterely ran by the separatist side. There were no guarantees of any kind, next to no supervision and no proper census. The census, as a matter of fact, is my favourite bit regarding this event, as the Catalonian government declared a "universal census". This means that anybody could vote anywhere. Thus the hilarity:


That table comes from a partial source so I had to check if it was true. As far as I've seen, it is. A number of small towns in inner Catalonia, where the separatist movement is the strongest, had more people voting for independence than their actual population, let alone the voting census. Espinelves is particularly brazen, as the "yes" campaign obtained 527 votes in a small town of 156.

The numbers for each locality can be checked using the official results at La Vanguardia and the site of the institute of statistics of Catalonia.

Even if we are to accept the explanation of those tiny towns in profoundly pro-independence regions receiving such an aberrant amount of "yes" votes because of the police closing down a number of polling stations elsewhere, it goes on to show that the numbers cannot be trusted at all. As a matter of fact, the Catalonian government has yet to provide the full results three days after proclaiming the victory of the separatist side. They are using percentages and color bars instead now. Because that is something acceptable and not odd at all.

Yet here we have the separatist-led Catalonian government, using a referendum with no requirement for a minimum turnout yet binding with a simple majority, rife with damning irregularities, no guarantees, no neutrality, conducted in a state bordering on civil unrest (which can be partly blamed on Rajoy, no doubt about that) and violating the terms of the Venice Commission to proclaim what will probably be an unilateral declaration of independence. That is some nation building right there.

I mean, Rajoy should be in jail. He's been my most despised acting politician since the 11-M and I've actually made threads about it, but acting like the Catalonian government is being treated unfairly here or that there are no arguments against the referendum outside of the legalese regarding the Spanish Constitution... well... it's brazen, to say the least.





This is a sectarian confrontation spurred by two governments (Barcelona and Madrid) with barely enough political support to stay afloat, yet acting like they are absolute rulers with no regard towards half (and more) of their respective populations. Both Rajoy and Puigdemont need to go so we can right the situation.




The problem here is that Rajoy believes that this is going to reinforce his pathetic popularity in the rest of Spain (it won't).

damn good post

edit: woot, new page
veryslowhand
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:03 PM)
OK, they declare independence next week, then what?
Xando
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by veryslowhand

OK, they declare independence next week, then what?

They're out of the EU, have hard borders on most sides, won't be recognized by anyone but russia and who knows what spain is gonna do.

????

Profit
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
(10-04-2017, 06:06 PM)
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Thanks Funky for that great summary.
Metal B
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by veryslowhand

OK, they declare independence next week, then what?

The Spanish Government will declare Marshall Law and the military disempower the Catalan local government ... Let's hope it goes fast and without anymore violence.
gutter_trash
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:08 PM)
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IMO.
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.

this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally
Theonik
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by veryslowhand

OK, they declare independence next week, then what?

A repeat of the last few weeks although this time the Catalan Government officially treats it as an invasion.

Originally Posted by gutter_trash

IMO.
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.

this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally

The Spanish government has no legal framework to allow Catalonia to secede. The UK is different because it has no written constitution and the government can do as they please.
Of course PP has no intention of letting this happen anyway.
Makai
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:10 PM)
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So what if “only” 40% voted. This is serious spin - might as well say no American election was legitimate.
Walshicus
(10-04-2017, 06:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Camaway2

The precedent it would set is the destruction of the fabric of the nation states and of the European Union as it stands, as many prosperous areas would seek to "secede" from the state they belong.

This isn't the destruction of nation states, it's their salvation and reclamation from the artificial multi-nation states that emerged in the last few centuries.

We're better off for the destruction of the Yugoslavias, Soviet Unions, Spains and Britains of the world.


And "belong" is a loaded concept. Legitimacy is earned from the ground up, not from the top down. A nation belongs in the state it *wants* to belong to.



Anyhow, I sincerely hope they do declare their independence from the Spanish regime, and that said regime refrains from the brutality we all expect from it.




Originally Posted by gutter_trash

IMO.
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.

this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally

Indeed. The surest way to prove to a people that they're better off without you is to deny their agency and beat them for daring to question their subservience.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
(10-04-2017, 06:11 PM)
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There's no scenario where this works out well for Catalonia.
gutter_trash
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:11 PM)
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I understand, the 1978 Constitution makes it impossible to secede but there lies the problem with that document

any country based on a union of multiple nations should have thought in advance a better concise constitution . Present conflict was predictable
Kyougar
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makai

So what if “only” 40% voted. This is serious spin - might as well say no American election was legitimate.

So, if Texas or California vote to secede with only a 40% vote turnaround, that would be okay?
Metal B
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by gutter_trash

IMO.
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.

this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally

The UK and Scotland have a complete different relationship. The UK is a union of states. Scotland isn't part of England. There are official laws, which make it possible for all of its members to leave the UK.
Spain and Catalan don't have such a relationship, Catalan is just a region of Spain.
Walshicus
(10-04-2017, 06:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kyougar

So, if Texas or California vote to secede with only a 40% vote turnaround, that would be okay?

Yes.
Ferr986
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Makai

So what if “only” 40% voted. This is serious spin - might as well say no American election was legitimate.

It's not only about the low percentage of voters but also the low warranties of the voting and how trusty the results are.
curi0usBystander
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by gutter_trash

IMO.
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.

this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally

To the PP any place where they can't win is simply an enemy to attack so they can win (votes) elsewhere. Expecting them to do the sensible thing would imply that they care about anything other than winning (elections).
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
(10-04-2017, 06:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Walshicus

Yes.

What?
The vote would be automatically unconstitutional.
tirant
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Regginator

Any source for this? Because, despite me encouraging Catalan independence, I find that extremely stupid from their part if that's true. One of the reasons I side with the Catalans is because the vast majority seems to want this, so if there's a substantial amount of people against independence and for whatever reason didn't vote, that's very dumb.

This is anecdotal, but in my circle of friends / colleagues / relatives, from the 20-30 I know not supporting independence, none of them voted. They event went to the polling stations to support voters against the repressive police, but they still thought the referendum didn't make any sense.

In any case, next weeks and months will be interesting: Even though there is no official message, some of the Spanish banks in Catalonia are already advising people to move their savings out of catalan banks and move their tax residence out of Catalonia just in case (corralito, etc.).
Jackpot
Junior Member
(10-04-2017, 06:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makai

So what if “only” 40% voted. This is serious spin - might as well say no American election was legitimate.

Because a vote that only one side participates in is worthless. You do realise a vote's purpose is to try and gain an accurate reflection of the will of the people, right? Context matters.
perfectchaos007
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:19 PM)
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So next week Barcelona will no longer be a part of Spain? Mah geography textbooks!
z1ggy
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(10-04-2017, 06:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by veryslowhand

OK, they declare independence next week, then what?

They should get some weapons and start to defend their "new" country. Spain will probably send troops in.

Independence always comes with violence and blood.
KingSnake
The Birthday Skeleton
(10-04-2017, 06:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makai

So what if “only” 40% voted. This is serious spin - might as well say no American election was legitimate.

That means you're imposing a decision of a minority on all the people of Catalonia. The opposite of democracy.
Dragner
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:20 PM)
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I dont know how this gonna end. But Ive been watching total victim blaming over catalonia by the press. Some went so far to publish that there was 400+ police injured that is total nonsense while saying there was no catalonian injured like sure... Even sports journals are making anti catalonian propaganda. This only works to see more and more xenophobic people raising. This cant end well.
Theonik
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(10-04-2017, 06:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by A Fish Aficionado

What?
The vote would be automatically unconstitutional.

The existence of the vote would be since the US constitution doesn't allow states to leave. However, there is no requirement on turnout in US elections so the onus would be on people to vote. Abstention does not absolve you of responsibility in an election.
TimmmV
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makai

So what if “only” 40% voted. This is serious spin - might as well say no American election was legitimate.

These aren't remotely equivalent things, especially considering the fact that turnout was so low partially because people knew it had no legal basis so didn't bother going

As I understand it (and seemingly confirmed by Funky Papa's post), the turn out figure is totally dubious too - there wasn't much control over who could vote, and there are instances of one person voting multiple times
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
(10-04-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Theonik

The existence of the vote would be since the US constitution doesn't allow states to leave. However, there is no requirement on turnout in US elections so the onus would be on people to vote. Abstention does not absolve you of responsibility in an election.

Clearly, as the results of our Presidential election shows, but that was well within a legal framework of voting.
andythinkpad
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:24 PM)
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I thought you guys are already a new nation after 48 hours. Where can I buy the commemorative stamp set?
correojon
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(10-04-2017, 06:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Regginator

Any source for this? Because, despite me encouraging Catalan independence, I find that extremely stupid from their part if that's true. One of the reasons I side with the Catalans is because the vast majority seems to want this, so if there's a substantial amount of people against independence and for whatever reason didn't vote, that's very dumb.

It was pretty clear form the start that only people supporting independence were going to vote, everyone in Spain knew this. Participating in the vote was seen as providing credibility to the process itself. Of course this was before the police started going crazy on the population. But right now, there hasn´t been a single official poll ran by an impartial organization that´s shown the will of independence to be greater than 50%. Even the current Catalan government, composed of a joinment of all independent parties has a minority of votes (not of sits). So in the case Catalonia became independent, the other side would have as much right as to propose a poll to get back to Spain the very next day. It´s a fucked up situation.
Walshicus
(10-04-2017, 06:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by A Fish Aficionado

What?
The vote would be automatically unconstitutional.

Just because something is in a constitution doesn't make it democratic or even right.
Theonik
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by A Fish Aficionado

Clearly, as the results of our Presidential election shows.

In the first place the constitution only binds you if you acknowledge it. When a state declares their independence they are basically choosing to not obey the laws of the original state.

Sovereignty is fundamentally about the exercise of authority through the state's exclusivity to violence from a certain perspective.

Hell, I would argue that the Catalan government choosing to run this referendum contrary to the wishes of the Spanish government and constitution is a de-facto declaration of independence.
KingSnake
The Birthday Skeleton
(10-04-2017, 06:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Walshicus

Just because something is in a constitution doesn't make it democratic or even right.

And the next logical step in a civilised world is first to try to change the constitution, not to try to go directly to civil war.
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(10-04-2017, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metal B

The UK and Scotland have a complete different relationship. The UK is a union of states. Scotland isn't part of England. There are official laws, which make it possible for all of its members to leave the UK.
Spain and Catalan don't have such a relationship, Catalan is just a region of Spain.

Only nominally.

Internationally speaking, Scotland, England and Wales are not countries. We passed a law allowing the vote because it was the best way to solve the question.

Spain could've done similar. The choice not to is political, not merely Constitutional.
d9b
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:32 PM)

Originally Posted by Metal B

The Spanish Government will declare Marshall Law and the military disempower the Catalan local government ... Let's hope it goes fast and without anymore violence.

Perfect recipe for civil war.
gutter_trash
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stop It

Only nominally.

Internationally speaking, Scotland, England and Wales are not countries. We passed a law allowing the vote because it was the best way to solve the question.

Spain could've done similar. The choice not to is political, not merely Constitutional.

Agreed 100%

A sit down by both camps, setting the terms, agreeing to a clear question. And having everything official would have been the most peaceful and legitimate way of dealing with it.

The Yes would have lost if it were handled legitimately
correojon
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dragner

I dont know how this gonna end. But Ive been watching total victim blaming over catalonia by the press. Some went so far to publish that there was 400+ police injured that is total nonsense while saying there was no catalonian injured like sure... Even sports journals are making anti catalonian propaganda. This only works to see more and more xenophobic people raising. This cant end well.

Yeah, that´s the worst I´m getting of this. Not the victim blaming, but the radicalization of both sides, specially the unionist one. I can´t understand how they can hate the Catalans so much but at the same time be asking for them not to leave? I hate you, don´t go!! It makes no sense.
TimmmV
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(10-04-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Walshicus

Just because something is in a constitution doesn't make it democratic or even right.

No, but that doesn't have much of a bearing on whether the referendum is legal

And obviously the legality of the referendum is going to impact the turnout, particularly among people that believe Catalonia should remain a part of Spain

Originally Posted by Walshicus

We're better off for the destruction of the Yugoslavias, Soviet Unions, Spains and Britains of the world.

The destruction of Yugoslavia literally resulted in ethnic cleansing! How are we better off for that happening!?
curiouscharles
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:35 PM)
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i've never understood the need for Catalonian independence.

from an outsider's perspective, it's like... just fuggin' stay in Spain guys [you look the same, you sound the same, you eat the same fucking things].

never, for an outsider, has an independence movement seemed so ridiculous.

BUT, i would love to be educated?

my brother in law is from Barcelona, and supports independence, but has given me zero compelling reasons why it's a thing?
Kyougar
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(10-04-2017, 06:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Theonik

The existence of the vote would be since the US constitution doesn't allow states to leave. However, there is no requirement on turnout in US elections so the onus would be on people to vote. Abstention does not absolve you of responsibility in an election.

So, if one state of your country wants to secede by a minority of the people and the whole thing is illegal and unconstitutional. Your government says, voting for it would be illegal and criminal and you would be apprehended.

Would you go to the voting booth in that case to vote no?
Kaworu
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(10-04-2017, 06:41 PM)
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That table comes from a partial source so I had to check if it was true. As far as I've seen, it is. A number of small towns in inner Catalonia, where the separatist movement is the strongest, had more people voting for independence than their actual population, let alone the voting census. Espinelves is particularly brazen, as the "yes" campaign obtained 527 votes in a small town of 156.

As the universal census was used on Sunday there is no way to know if that difference was caused by people voting more than one time or just by people voting in a different place because the police was blocking their usual polling station.
Javier23
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:41 PM)

Originally Posted by Metal B

The Spanish Government will declare Marshall Law and the military disempower the Catalan local government ... Let's hope it goes fast and without anymore violence.

If Marshall Law is brought in:

Why even involve the military? Have you even seen what he's able to do all by himself? ;P
sangreal
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(10-04-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Walshicus

Yes.

We already fought a war to settle that question
Ferr986
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:44 PM)

Originally Posted by curiouscharles

i've never understood the need for Catalonian independence.

from an outsider's perspective, it's like... just fuggin' stay in Spain guys [you look the same, you sound the same, you eat the same fucking things].

never, for an outsider, has an independence movement seemed so ridiculous.

BUT, i would love to be educated?

my brother in law is from Barcelona, and supports independence, but has given me zero compelling reasons why it's a thing?

Catalonia has it's own different culture and even their own language (much like, for example, Basque). Spain is very rich in cultural diversity actually.

In Catalonia's case, the independence ideology comes from very long ago since the borbonic ocupation in 1700ish? (cant remember now)
TimmmV
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by curiouscharles

i've never understood the need for Catalonian independence.

from an outsider's perspective, it's like... just fuggin' stay in Spain guys [you look the same, you sound the same, you eat the same fucking things].

never, for an outsider, has an independence movement seemed so ridiculous.

BUT, i would love to be educated?

my brother in law is from Barcelona, and supports independence, but has given me zero compelling reasons why it's a thing?

Dude, come on. Its clearly not that simple - Catalonia even has its own separate language from Spanish!

There are legitimate reasons why someone from there might feel different from other Spanish people. I don't think they are significant to warrant even considering leaving Spain, and that most of the reasons for wanting to are just as dumb as those given in support of Brexit, but its hardly like they're entirely without merit
shiyrley
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:44 PM)
An I right in thinking that if they actually went full retard and sent the military to Catalonia, Spain would (theorically) automatically be out of the EU because of sending the military against our citizens?
Walshicus
(10-04-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by TimmmV

No, but that doesn't have much of a bearing on whether the referendum is legal

And obviously the legality of the referendum is going to impact the turnout, particularly among people that believe Catalonia should remain a part of Spain

If they believed that they should have voted for it.


The destruction of Yugoslavia literally resulted in ethnic cleansing! How are we better off for that happening!?

Cause, not effect.
gutter_trash
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:47 PM)
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The biggest problem with Spain is trying to adopt a unified identity that is tied to the dominant crown's name change.

When people think of Spanish and the Spanish language, they think of what was formerly known as as Castilian but rarely think about the other languages.

The entire premise of a unified Spain in a geographical term, that is okay.

But Spain decided that Castilian to become the defecto language and labeled it as Spanish is the main root of the attempt of creating a Unified Spaniard identity based on language instead of geography.

That is an error IMO.


Before the use of the word Spain for the current country, the word was used geographical for the entire Iberian peninsula in a geographic manor. Not linguistic nor nationalistic.
Ferr986
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:47 PM)

Originally Posted by Walshicus

If they believed that they should have voted for it.

Did you even read Funky Papa post?
Squirrel Killer
Member
(10-04-2017, 06:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Magni

2) hold a legal referendum, with a proper debate, and with proper EU backing (ie, the options are to stay in Spain, or join the EU as a new country). A referendum where the other option implies leaving the EU is not a proper referendum IMO

Can a newly independent state just declare that they are joining the EU? Doesn't the EU have a say in who joins with certain criteria for joining? Has the EU indicated they would accept the new state?
Javier23
Banned
(10-04-2017, 06:48 PM)

Originally Posted by shiyrley

An I right in thinking that if they actually went full retard and sent the military to Catalonia, Spain would (theorically) automatically be out of the EU because of sending the military against our citizens?

No. And they wouldn't be using its military against its citizens.
Walshicus
(10-04-2017, 06:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by sangreal

We already fought a war to settle that question

Yes, but the CSA's defeat is cheered because the evil of their slavery outweighs the rightness of their push for self determination.


States have no inherent value, but there is value in the cohesion and legitimacy that springs from nationhood; a concept that emerges from people rather than being imposed on them.

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