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Westbahnhof
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Oriel

The Euro.

Has there ever been a situation where a place declared independence and then kept or attempted to keep the same currency?
It sounds messy, with Spain probably wanting to stop anything of the sort.
But I know very little about this.
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Oriel

Madrid: "Hey Catalonia, we love you guys so much we're making it easier for businesses to leave your region."

Reminds me of all that "Better Together" bollox during the Scottish Indy Ref campaign.

What exactly do you expect here? If Catalonia declares independence, of course businesses want to get the hell out, because of all the uncertainty. Just like businesses are moving out of the UK because of Brexit. Things might work out, but you don't want to risk it.

This is a totally reasonable thing to do. At this moment you are blaming Spain for not giving you all the help you can get in declaring an independence they have zero to gain from and will create trouble for the whole country.
tuxfool
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:35 PM)

Originally Posted by Westbahnhof

Has there ever been a situation where a place declared independence and then kept or attempted to keep the same currency?
It sounds messy, with Spain probably wanting to stop anything of the sort.
But I know very little about this.

Yeah, they'd have to use a different currency, especially given that they would be outside of the EU and by consequence out of Eurozone.
Westbahnhof
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by tuxfool

Yeah, they'd have to use a different currency, especially given that they would be outside of the EU and by consequence out of Eurozone.

And.. How would they take away the Euro? I'm honestly clueless and this seems.. Yeah. Messy. Sorry for repeating myself.
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by tuxfool

Yeah, they'd have to use a different currency, especially given that they would be outside of the Eurozone.

They can use it perfectly fine without explicit EU permission. They just have zero control over it. Kosovo and Montenegro use the Euro also for example while not being part of the EU or Eurozone.

As long as people in Catalonia continue to accept the Euro as their currency, nobody can stop them with that I think.
tuxfool
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:39 PM)

Originally Posted by Westbahnhof

And.. How would they take away the Euro? I'm honestly clueless and this seems.. Yeah. Messy. Sorry for repeating myself.

Certainly me too. I don't know how the central bank would deal with such a situation. Their currency would essentially be the Euro or linked to it initially.

Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

They can use it perfectly fine without explicit EU permission. They just have zero control over it. Kosovo and Montenegro use the Euro also for example while not being part of the EU or Eurozone.

As long as people in Catalonia continue to accept the Euro as their currency, nobody can stop them with that I think.

Ah, thanks.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(10-06-2017, 05:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by tuxfool

What about the people in Catalunya that don't want independence? By most accounts it is fairly evenly split.

Firstly, they ought to have voted for unionist parties in the Parliament of Catalonia, such that there was no relevant Catalan actor with any legitimacy concerned with independence. Secondly, they ought to have voted in the referendum, since given it seemed likely Spain would never acquiesce to such a measure, this was the most legitimate consultation of the people possible and as such held moral weight. Thirdly, now we have passed both the two prior points, they ought to be lobbying the Spanish government to offer a referendum, so that the Catalan regional government cannot claim the status of the most legitimate actor. I am by nature a unionist, and if I were to be Catalan Spaniard, the third is what I would be doing most fervently right now.
Tempus fugit
Banned
(10-06-2017, 05:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Crab

This is complete nonsense. The Spanish state has outright refused for a legal referendum to be held. This is a denial of democracy. The Catalan regional government has attempted the best possible democratic means of consulting the Catalan people it can. At the moment, the Catalan regional government is the one with the moral and democratic legitimacy to act. If Spain continues to refuse to allow for a legal referendum, then unilateral secession is fully justified. If this were not the case, and if it were true that as long as Spain refuses to hold a legal referendum, Catalunya cannot have independence, then you are denying the right of the Catalan people to self-determine.

If Spain refuses to hold a referendum, Catalunya declares unilateral secession, and Spain sends in troops, I would personally do everything in my power to go to Catalunya to do what I could to assist in their favour. States are products of and derive their power from their people; they govern by the assent of the governed. The party at fault here is the Spanish state for not simply allowing a referendum that in all probability they would have won, and handily. It's not enough I get to praise my country's politics (either of them), but on this rare occasion the Scottish example is a clear paradigm for what ought to be done.

We have our little Orwell here, fighting against the fascist Spanish Goverment, constitution and people.
tuxfool
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:41 PM)

Originally Posted by Crab

Firstly, they ought to have voted for unionist parties in the Parliament of Catalonia, such that there was no relevant Catalan actor with any legitimacy concerned with independence. Secondly, they ought to have voted in the referendum, since given it seemed likely Spain would never acquiesce to such a measure, this was the most legitimate consultation of the people possible and as such held moral weight. Thirdly, now we have passed both the two prior points, they ought to be lobbying the Spanish government to offer a referendum, so that the Catalan regional government cannot claim the status of the most legitimate actor.

Given that those people think that the referendum was illegitimate, you're essentially asking them to validate something that they think is illegal, saying a shoddily conducted referendum takes precedence over the constitution or national law.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(10-06-2017, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by tuxfool

Given that those people think that the referendum was illegitimate, you're essentially asking them to validate something that they think is illegal.

Unless the Spanish government allows for a referendum, this is the most legitimate (in the moral sense) possible consultation. That's just the truth of the matter, whether you personally cast a vote or not. What I will say is that if I were a Catalan Spaniard and a unionist, I would be absolutely hopping mad at the incompetence and barbarity of Rajoy's government. Unilateral secession would be god-awful for everyone involved, and Rajoy at the very least has the ability to prevent that by offering a legitimate alternative.
Tempus fugit
Banned
(10-06-2017, 05:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Crab

Unless the Spanish government allows for a referendum, this is the most legitimate (in the moral sense) possible consultation. That's just the truth of the matter, whether you personally cast a vote or not. What I will say is that if I were a Catalan Spaniard and a unionist, I would be absolutely hopping mad at the incompetence and barbarity of Rajoy's government. Unilateral secession would be god-awful for everyone involved, and Rajoy at the very least has the ability to prevent that by offering a legitimate alternative.

Spanish goverment can't allow the referendum, only the whole of Spanish people can do so. If Rajoy tried, he would end in prison.

At this point some of you honestly seem retarded; this is not the right wing Spanish Goverment, all this movements against the referendum are being made by the Spanish Constitutional Court and Catalonia's Supreme Court.
tolkir
Member
(10-06-2017, 05:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

They can use it perfectly fine without explicit EU permission. They just have zero control over it. Kosovo and Montenegro use the Euro also for example while not being part of the EU or Eurozone.

As long as people in Catalonia continue to accept the Euro as their currency, nobody can stop them with that I think.

Oh, thanks. It's good to know it.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(10-06-2017, 05:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tempus fugit

Spanish goverment can't allow the referendum, only the whole of Spanish people can do so. If Rajoy tried, he would end in prison.

At this point some of you honestly seem retarded; this is not the right wing Spanish Goverment, all this movements against the referendum are being made by the Spanish Constitutional Court and Catalonia's Supreme Court.

The Spanish government can allow the referendum in the sense that it takes two-thirds of the House and an election to change the constitution, and, while they can't guarantee the latter, Rajoy's party is the key impediment to the former - at least amongst the PS and Podemos, antipathy to the notion of a referendum in general is not as high.

Of course, if Rajoy were to vote to allow for the constitutional change necessary for a referendum and the election did not return the two-thirds support, so be it. Catalunya would again be left with no alternative to unilateralism. But at least it wouldn't be on Rajoy's head.
Tempus fugit
Banned
(10-06-2017, 05:58 PM)

Originally Posted by Crab

The Spanish government can allow the referendum in the sense that it takes two-thirds of the House and an election to change the constitution, and, while they can't guarantee the latter, Rajoy's party is the key impediment to the former - at least amongst the PS and Podemos, antipathy to the notion of a referendum in general is not as high.

Of course, if Rajoy were to vote to allow for the constitutional change necessary for a referendum and the election did not return the two-thirds support, so be it. Catalunya would again be left with no alternative to unilateralism. But at least it wouldn't be on Rajoy's head.

After the two thirds of the congress thing, you have to ask all of Spain in a referendum, and then form a new goverment to change the constitution.
KingSnake
The Birthday Skeleton
(10-06-2017, 06:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

Unless the Spanish government allows for a referendum, this is the most legitimate (in the moral sense) possible consultation. That's just the truth of the matter, whether you personally cast a vote or not. What I will say is that if I were a Catalan Spaniard and a unionist, I would be absolutely hopping mad at the incompetence and barbarity of Rajoy's government. Unilateral secession would be god-awful for everyone involved, and Rajoy at the very least has the ability to prevent that by offering a legitimate alternative.

As I argued before, the whole process should be stopped and started properly from the beginning. Have a Spanish election centred around the topic of the referendum, have the Catalan parties actively participating in that and collaborating with the Spanish parties in the same way SNP did in UK. Gain the right relevance by doing things the proper way and not trying to rush head forward into a civil war. Not skipping steps and starting a dialogue is better than this dick measuring contest in which was clear from the beginning who's going to lose.

It's too serious of a decision and action to be done in this way, against half of their own region. We already see the first economic impact of this irresponsible way of action. Also what's the rush? Why do it now or never instead of doing it properly?
Last edited by KingSnake; 10-06-2017 at 06:12 PM.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(10-06-2017, 06:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by KingSnake

As I argued before, the whole process should be stopped and started properly from the beginning. Have a Spanish election centred around the topic of the referendum, have the Catalan parties actively participating in that and collaborating with the Spanish parties in the same way SNP did in UK. Gain the right relevance by doing things the proper way and not trying to rush head forward into a civil war. Not skipping steps and starting a dialogue is better than this dick measuring contest in which was clear from the beginning who's going to lose.

It's too serious of a decision and action to be done in this way, against half of their own region. We already see the first economic impact of this irresponsible way of action. Also what's the rush? Why do it now or never instead of doing it properly?

I agree with you completely on what the ideal path forward would be, but I think that the prospect of Catalunya declaring unilateral independence needs to be a credible threat, or Spain won't carry through - that should be obvious at this point. Catalunya should make it clear - we would like to do this as per Spanish law, but if you will not allow us to do this, we will not be cowed.
Nivash
(10-06-2017, 07:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

This is complete nonsense. The Spanish state has outright refused for a legal referendum to be held. This is a denial of democracy. The Catalan regional government has attempted the best possible democratic means of consulting the Catalan people it can. At the moment, the Catalan regional government is the one with the moral and democratic legitimacy to act. If Spain continues to refuse to allow for a legal referendum, then unilateral secession is fully justified. If this were not the case, and if it were true that as long as Spain refuses to hold a legal referendum, Catalunya cannot have independence, then you are denying the right of the Catalan people to self-determine.

If Spain refuses to hold a referendum, Catalunya declares unilateral secession, and Spain sends in troops, I would personally do everything in my power to go to Catalunya to do what I could to assist in their favour. States are products of and derive their power from their people; they govern by the assent of the governed. The party at fault here is the Spanish state for not simply allowing a referendum that in all probability they would have won, and handily. It's not enough I get to praise my country's politics (either of them), but on this rare occasion the Scottish example is a clear paradigm for what ought to be done.

I vehemently disagree. The Catalan people are Spanish. If they want to separate from Spain, they have to make their case for this to the Spanish people and allow for the grind of democracy to do its thing and change to constitution to allow for it. Secessions are extraordinary acts, they can absolutely not be decided by a simple majority in a slap-dash referendum resulting in a unilateral declaration. Especially not one announced by a minority government that's barely even in power. The Catalonian government simply does not have the credibility for any such action considering the consequences.

But by all means, head down there and die for a free Catalonia if shit hits the fan. I'm sure the foreign fighters in Ukraine and Syria thought they had righteousness on their side too.

Originally Posted by Crab

I agree with you completely on what the ideal path forward would be, but I think that the prospect of Catalunya declaring unilateral independence needs to be a credible threat, or Spain won't carry through - that should be obvious at this point. Catalunya should make it clear - we would like to do this as per Spanish law, but if you will not allow us to do this, we will not be cowed.

These two options are not even in the same universe. A credible threat of unilateral secession is the same as a credible threat of revolt and civil war. You're basically arguing that what they can't get through politics, they should seize by force.
Last edited by Nivash; 10-06-2017 at 07:34 PM.
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-06-2017, 08:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

The Spanish government can allow the referendum in the sense that it takes two-thirds of the House and an election to change the constitution, and, while they can't guarantee the latter, Rajoy's party is the key impediment to the former - at least amongst the PS and Podemos, antipathy to the notion of a referendum in general is not as high.

Of course, if Rajoy were to vote to allow for the constitutional change necessary for a referendum and the election did not return the two-thirds support, so be it. Catalunya would again be left with no alternative to unilateralism. But at least it wouldn't be on Rajoy's head.

What I don't get about the whole situation, is how something like an advisory referendum isn't done. That way, you wouldn't be against the (current) constitution. So if the people vote 'no' everyone can continue and that was that. If they vote 'yes' then they can look at what the process would actually mean, lay out a plan, analyze the probable impact and changes necessary. Of course that would be like a decade long process, but well, something large as this shouldn't be done with a one off referendum anyway. And then when they got the details, the people can speak about if that is acceptable maybe. That way everyone knows what is going to happen with things like taxes, pensions, borders, currency, etc, etc. And I am going to guess a ton of people will then vote 'no' when they actually see what independence would mean for their daily lives.

But I guess that would mean everyone is an adult about it, has some patience and will act in good faith. Which will be almost impossible.
SpeedOfNuts
Member
(10-06-2017, 08:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by KingSnake

As I argued before, the whole process should be stopped and started properly from the beginning. Have a Spanish election centred around the topic of the referendum, have the Catalan parties actively participating in that and collaborating with the Spanish parties in the same way SNP did in UK. Gain the right relevance by doing things the proper way and not trying to rush head forward into a civil war. Not skipping steps and starting a dialogue is better than this dick measuring contest in which was clear from the beginning who's going to lose.

It's too serious of a decision and action to be done in this way, against half of their own region. We already see the first economic impact of this irresponsible way of action. Also what's the rush? Why do it now or never instead of doing it properly?

The thing is, this didn't start yesterday. Doing it properly has been impossible and you will know it if you have been following this process in the last 7 years. Or do you think the Catalan government wouldn't be crying tears of joy if they could arrange a referendum with Spain? Agree on what's the question exactly, agree on a date that suits everybody, time for all sides to do a proper campaing, have all the democratic guarantees, etc. This is exactly what has been offered over and over again from the Catalan side.

The Catalan government didn't do a half assed referendum just for the pleasure of doing half assed things. Nobody wants to jump steps, nobody wants to run head on into caos. This has been the very last resort after hitting the same wall for years.

The only answer from Spain is change the Spanish constitution, and if we are all honest we will all agree that this is just impossible because the Catalans simply can't achieve the required majority, ever. So you tell me what are the options when you have millions of people in the street, every year. Dialogue with whom? Puigdemont still offered dialogue this week and Rajoy and Saez de Santamaria dismissed it again.

Originally Posted by Crab

I agree with you completely on what the ideal path forward would be, but I think that the prospect of Catalunya declaring unilateral independence needs to be a credible threat, or Spain won't carry through - that should be obvious at this point. Catalunya should make it clear - we would like to do this as per Spanish law, but if you will not allow us to do this, we will not be cowed.

Exactly.
KingSnake
The Birthday Skeleton
(10-06-2017, 09:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpeedOfNuts

The thing is, this didn't start yesterday. Doing it properly has been impossible and you will know it if you have been following this process in the last 7 years. Or do you think the Catalan government wouldn't be crying tears of joy if they could arrange a referendum with Spain? Agree on what's the question exactly, agree on a date that suits everybody, time for all sides to do a proper campaing, have all the democratic guarantees, etc. This is exactly what has been offered over and over again from the Catalan side.

The Catalan government didn't do a half assed referendum just for the pleasure of doing half assed things. Nobody wants to jump steps, nobody wants to run head on into caos. This has been the very last resort after hitting the same wall for years.

The only answer from Spain is change the Spanish constitution, and if we are all honest we will all agree that this is just impossible because the Catalans simply can't achieve the required majority, ever. So you tell me what are the options when you have millions of people in the street, every year. Dialogue with whom? Puigdemont still offered dialogue this week and Rajoy and Saez de Santamaria dismissed it again.



Exactly.

We keep going back and forth about how UK and Scotland handled this much better. Besides the obvious differences between the two situations, one thing is for sure. SNP knew what they were doing. They had a long term plan. Hell, even now they have another plan, after the referendum failed. And none of those were suicidal plans.

There are parties beyond PP. Even PP might be more flexible in need of parliamentary votes. Most likely the next elections PP would have finally been out of the government. I guess that it's no longer happening now. Because what is happening now is only radicalising the positions on both sides in the benefit of PP and the most radical Catalan parties.

Funny how things are going for so many years and yet there is no sign even of a beginning of a well made plan.

There's a half-assed referendum and a threat with a half-assed declaration of independence. And then what?
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-06-2017, 10:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by KingSnake

We keep going back and forth about how UK and Scotland handled this much better. Besides the obvious differences between the two situations, one thing is for sure. SNP knew what they were doing. They had a long term plan. Hell, even now they have another plan, after the referendum failed. And none of those were suicidal plans.

There are parties beyond PP. Even PP might be more flexible in need of parliamentary votes. Most likely the next elections PP would have finally been out of the government. I guess that it's no longer happening now. Because what is happening now is only radicalising the positions on both sides in the benefit of PP and the most radical Catalan parties.

Funny how things are going for so many years and yet there is no sign even of a beginning of a well made plan.

There's a half-assed referendum and a threat with a half-assed declaration of independence. And then what?

Didn't the SNP basically dominate Scottish politics for a while then. As in, gotten pretty much 100% of the seats. In Catalonia the pro-independence parties seem to have just about half. That already puts them in a bad situation with negotiations.
SpeedOfNuts
Member
(10-06-2017, 10:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by KingSnake

We keep going back and forth about how UK and Scotland handled this much better. Besides the obvious differences between the two situations, one thing is for sure. SNP knew what they were doing. They had a long term plan. Hell, even now they have another plan, after the referendum failed. And none of those were suicidal plans.

There are parties beyond PP. Even PP might be more flexible in need of parliamentary votes. Most likely the next elections PP would have finally been out of the government. I guess that it's no longer happening now. Because what is happening now is only radicalising the positions on both sides in the benefit of PP and the most radical Catalan parties.

Funny how things are going for so many years and yet there is no sign even of a beginning of a well made plan.

There's a half-assed referendum and a threat with a half-assed declaration of independence. And then what?

The main difference is the SNP dealt with a democratic government.

As for PP, yes I am aware there are other political parties in Spain but I am also aware (and you should too) about where they stand. Podemos is the only party that presents any possibility of agreement or at least will to talk. PSOE and C’s have the exact same position as PP. I hope you get the picture.



The idea that PP is a radical party that somehow is alone on their no negotiation policy is just plain wrong.

What’s funny is you think the people that organised the referendum are somehow just careless and stupid when you don’t even know who is who, where they stand and how we got here.
marcbret87
Member
(10-06-2017, 10:41 PM)
Well, Artur Mas is claiming in the Financial Times that Catalonia is not ready for real independence (whatever that means) but that they have earned the right to build a state (whatever that means). So, after locking horns with the central government all the way, it turns out that they actually don't have any way to seize independence. Personally, I think the Catalan government is now back against the wall. Big business is moving out (Gas Natural moving it's headquarters to Madrid is huge, same as Caixabanc). A unilateral declaration of independence will be pointless since they can't exert independence and no one will recognize it. And if they don't, then it will likely disappoint their voters, specially CUP voters, who at the moment seem to be the ones pushing for a unilateral declaration. Honestly, this won't end well.

Will now somebody tell me what is the logic in calling for a referendum whose result you can't implement? I was saying it from the very beginning, the referendum was a farce, not only because of the way the voting went, but simply because the result didn't matter, as they were not able to seize independence. I hope some independence voters will now realize they have been lied to, but who am I kidding?

I think La Generalitat was hoping to gather some international support by now, but this simply hasn't happened, more like the opposite.
marcbret87
Member
(10-06-2017, 10:45 PM)

Originally Posted by Nivash

Absolutely, I don't expect Madrid to go beyond sending in the Guardia Civil again. But what if, like I mentioned above, the Catalan actually do mobilise the Mossos to resist? They are 17,000 strong. The Catalan government has floated the idea of turning them into the Catalan military in a post-independence situation. They're a sizable paramilitary force as it is and beyond any civilian police force to be able to control.

Again, we're talking about the absolute worst case scenario here. But I want to stress just how serious this situation is. Unilateral declarations of independence are revolts. Catalan knows this. Maybe they really are just playing brinksmanship and bluffing in a way they can't back up, but I wouldn't put it beyond them to have contingencies in place in case things escalate out of control.

Of course it's very serious to declare independence unilaterally, but it's clear from this post many pro-indy voters think it's their democratic right to do so. Still, I think the Catalan government is now trying to stop the situation from escalating to a unilateral declaration.

Originally Posted by Crab

I agree with you completely on what the ideal path forward would be, but I think that the prospect of Catalunya declaring unilateral independence needs to be a credible threat, or Spain won't carry through - that should be obvious at this point. Catalunya should make it clear - we would like to do this as per Spanish law, but if you will not allow us to do this, we will not be cowed.

Sure, it is a credible threat now, don't you see big business moving their headquarters? Congratulations. For now it's just the social headquarters.
KingSnake
The Birthday Skeleton
(10-06-2017, 10:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpeedOfNuts

What’s funny is you think the people that organised the referendum are somehow just careless and stupid when you don’t even know who is who, where they stand and how we got here.

Tell me what's their plan now? Give me a link to a written document that analyses what's happening in case of independence. Especially in case it's unilateral. How is Catalonia prepared for that? What resources are needed? What's the source for those resources? What's the next step if Spain reacts as everybody expects? And so on.
Last edited by KingSnake; 10-06-2017 at 11:10 PM.
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-06-2017, 11:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpeedOfNuts

The main difference is the SNP dealt with a democratic government.

As for PP, yes I am aware there are other political parties in Spain but I am also aware (and you should too) about where they stand. Podemos is the only party that presents any possibility of agreement or at least will to talk. PSOE and C’s have the exact same position as PP. I hope you get the picture.


The idea that PP is a radical party that somehow is alone on their no negotiation policy is just plain wrong.

What’s funny is you think the people that organised the referendum are somehow just careless and stupid when you don’t even know who is who, where they stand and how we got here.

It is careless, because there is zero plan for what to do now. They threatened to declare independence 48 hours after the result. The result - according to them - is about 90% in favor of independence. But the Catalonian government knows they have no way of actually doing anything, and even if they declare independence they are more fucked. What is going to happen with the infrastructure, who is going to pay the government employees, who is going to pay the pensions, where are the taxes going, is there even enough electricity if Madrid decides to cut the lines to Catalonia, is there enough gas, what is the money situation. I can go on for a while. It is gambling with millions of peoples future. The definition of careless and stupid.

If their threat was serious, they would have had a plan ready. They don't. Honestly, it is starting to look like you are all being played by a bunch of politicians trying to stay in power on both sides.
RalchAC
Member
(10-06-2017, 11:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by marcbret87

Well, Artur Mas is claiming in the Financial Times that Catalonia is not ready for real independence (whatever that means) but that they have earned the right to build a state (whatever that means). So, after locking horns with the central government all the way, it turns out that they actually don't have any way to seize independence. Personally, I think the Catalan government is now back against the wall. Big business is moving out (Gas Natural moving it's headquarters to Madrid is huge, same as Caixabanc). A unilateral declaration of independence will be pointless since they can't exert independence and no one will recognize it. And if they don't, then it will likely disappoint their voters, specially CUP voters, who at the moment seem to be the ones pushing for a unilateral declaration. Honestly, this won't end well.

Will now somebody tell me what is the logic in calling for a referendum whose result you can't implement? I was saying it from the very beginning, the referendum was a farce, not only because of the way the voting went, but simply because the result didn't matter, as they were not able to seize independence. I hope some independence voters will now realize they have been lied to, but who am I kidding?

I think La Generalitat was hoping to gather some international support by now, but this simply hasn't happened, more like the opposite.

I feel like the independendist parties are just doing this for two things:

A) Using PP to gain gather more sympathy and affiliates towards their cause, which I'd say works. I'm sure they're the party that has turned more people to the cause than anybody else. Their attitude is just that bad.

B) Eroding the current government, hoping to get a different party elected during next elections: one that would be more willing to actually talk and negotiate with them for a further decentralization of the Spanish State. Rajoy has definitely given reasons to anyone but their most loyal userbase to despise them.

The PP seems to be mostly alone with this. Well, maybe Ciudadanos isn't so far away from them, I've always seen them quite more right leaning that they pretend to. Podemos has always been supportive with the referendum (and most of his allies are too) and PSOE, while opting for a different solution, at least is aware that things were handled in the worst way possible.

A government made of PSOE and Unidos Podemos will probably be quite better from their viewpoint than the current one.
Ixion090
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 12:31 AM)
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Damn, I wouldn't want Unidos Podemos to have any actual power, they are too similar to the chavismo here in Venezuela and I wouldn't want that for Spain. But at the same time I am hating PP a lot more lately. I am officially conflicted about the situation.
gutter_trash
(10-07-2017, 12:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ixion090

Damn, I wouldn't want Unidos Podemos to have any actual power, they are too similar to the chavismo here in Venezuela and I wouldn't want that for Spain. But at the same time I am hating PP a lot more lately. I am officially conflicted about the situation.

And they are Russia backed
deathkiller
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ixion090

Damn, I wouldn't want Unidos Podemos to have any actual power, they are too similar to the chavismo here in Venezuela and I wouldn't want that for Spain. But at the same time I am hating PP a lot more lately. I am officially conflicted about the situation.

Podemos has presence in a few local and regional governments and nothing crazy has happened. Due to our electoral system is highly unlikely they will ever have an absolute majority so nothing like Venezuela will happen any time soon.
elite09
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(10-07-2017, 10:57 AM)
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Apparently this is how nationalist count votes now.

https://twitter.com/jmdelalamo/statu...44091666984960
afroguy10
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(10-07-2017, 11:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

Didn't the SNP basically dominate Scottish politics for a while then. As in, gotten pretty much 100% of the seats. In Catalonia the pro-independence parties seem to have just about half. That already puts them in a bad situation with negotiations.

Naa, during the referendum they only had a few seats in Westminster, they held a majority in the Scottish Parliament which was meant to be incredibly hard with the way the Scottish Parliament is set up.

It wasn't until the election in 2015 that the SNP managed to get every seat in Scotland apart from 2 or 3. They still hold a majority of the seats in Scotland but lost seats a fair few seats to Labour and the Tories in the election earlier this year.
Ferr986
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(10-07-2017, 12:38 PM)
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Two concentrations right now in Madrid, one advocating for dialogue with independentists and one for spanish nationalism (aka fuck dialogue).

Honestly, I wonder if, even if catalan gov stops with their independist plans, things wil ever be the same. Seeing a lot of resentment between spanish and catalans that will hardly go away easily.
Last edited by Ferr986; 10-07-2017 at 12:46 PM.
bytesized
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(10-07-2017, 01:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ferr986

Two concentrations right now in Madrid, one advocating for dialogue with independentists and one for spanish nationalism (aka fuck dialogue).

Honestly, I wonder if, even if catalan gov stops with their independist plans, things wil ever be the same. Seeing a lot of resentment between spanish and catalans that will hardly go away easily.

It won't be the same. Most people are just doubling down on their rhetoric while all the rest are just getting accused for not picking a side. It's terrible and completely nonsensical.
elite09
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(10-08-2017, 11:56 AM)
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Images from the demostration today in Barcelona. There are some right wing extremist there, but most people are behaving fine.





Last edited by elite09; 10-08-2017 at 11:58 AM.
RalchAC
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(10-08-2017, 12:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ixion090

Damn, I wouldn't want Unidos Podemos to have any actual power, they are too similar to the chavismo here in Venezuela and I wouldn't want that for Spain. But at the same time I am hating PP a lot more lately. I am officially conflicted about the situation.

I voted them last election (mainly because I support Compromís, which is a regional party from my region) but I'm rather conflicted with them. I've never liked Pablo Iglesias, he's always felt too much of a politician with the way he acts, and Errejón has been pushed to the sidelines by the party, which was the head of Podemos that I liked the most. Next term I don't really feel like voting them, but I don't really feel like voting any other party either, especially if IU (whose leader I like quite a bit too) keeps their joint venture with them.

A coallition with PSOE could work. COULD. In a good situation they'd balance each other. PSOE would be a bit more left leaning than usual due to the partnership and Podemos could get a bit closer to the center. That was my best case scenario when I voted last time. I wouldn't want them to govern by themselves TBH.
Elfotografoalocado
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(10-08-2017, 12:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by tuxfool

Yeah, they'd have to use a different currency, especially given that they would be outside of the EU and by consequence out of Eurozone.

They could unilaterally adopt the Euro.
bytesized
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(10-08-2017, 12:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by RalchAC

I voted them last election (mainly because I support Compromís, which is a regional party from my region) but I'm rather conflicted with them. I've never liked Pablo Iglesias, he's always felt too much of a politician with the way he acts, and Errejón has been pushed to the sidelines by the party, which was the head of Podemos that I liked the most. Next term I don't really feel like voting them, but I don't really feel like voting any other party either, especially if IU (whose leader I like quite a bit too) keeps their joint venture with them.

A coallition with PSOE could work. COULD. In a good situation they'd balance each other. PSOE would be a bit more left leaning than usual due to the partnership and Podemos could get a bit closer to the center. That was my best case scenario when I voted last time. I wouldn't want them to govern by themselves TBH.

I'm exactly on the same boat as you. I agree with Podemos most of the time but I just can't stand Iglesias anymore and wish that he would give way to Errejon. He once said that he would quit as leader of podemos would he lose the general elections. He lost and yet there he is still. I don't trust him. Also, there's so much cult of personality going on around him from Podemos supporters that just makes me sick.
veryslowhand
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(10-08-2017, 01:53 PM)
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The moving out of big companies is getting people to realize it's time to speak for unity it seems.
Xando
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(10-08-2017, 02:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by veryslowhand

The moving out of big companies is getting people to realize it's time to speak for unity it seems.

It's almost as if people realize leaving one of the largest economic blocs on earth is a not a good idea.
megateto
Member
(10-08-2017, 03:17 PM)

Originally Posted by Xando

It's almost as if people realize leaving one of the largest economic blocs on earth is a not a good idea.

The separatists leaders always said that an independent Catalonia would remain in the EU despite everything the EU said against it. Current actions taken by some big companies (banks included) are showing what it really means to leave Spain behind.
SporeCrawler
Member
(10-08-2017, 03:29 PM)
im struggling to understand this conflict,

if you want a peaceful splitup you gotta do it like scottland tried it.. with a referendum that is lawful.

if you want a hostile one you can do it when the fuck you want i guess but you need the miltary and the economy to back it up... does catalonia have a standing military to prevent the spainiards to take over barcelona with tanks?

i really hope this doesnt happen but boy is this conflict getting into chaos now.
ClosingADoor
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(10-08-2017, 03:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by SporeCrawler

im struggling to understand this conflict,

if you want a peaceful splitup you gotta do it like scottland tried it.. with a referendum that is lawful.

if you want a hostile one you can do it when the fuck you want i guess but you need the miltary and the economy to back it up... does catalonia have a standing military to prevent the spainiards to take over barcelona with tanks?

i really hope this doesnt happen but boy is this conflict getting into chaos now.

Spain doesn't allow a referendum. Catalonia does not have a military.

We already see people backtracking a bit over the past days. It seems the impact of a possible split is getting more clear and this will be solved with some promises of more autonomy for the region.
SporeCrawler
Member
(10-08-2017, 03:36 PM)

Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

Spain doesn't allow a referendum. Catalonia does not have a military.

We already see people backtracking a bit over the past days. It seems the impact of a possible split is getting more clear and this will be solved with some promises of more autonomy for the region.

lets hope so. and i might add that having no referendum might be the right choice by the constitutional lawmaker (cough cough brexit..)

Originally Posted by Walshicus

Lawful according to the Spanish regime's backwards laws perhaps.

But that's the problem. The Spanish regime have a choice to employ violence or not. They have a choice to devalue Human life and to value their grip on the nations they've subsumed over the people within.


It was Human beings who ordered the regime's thugs into polling stations and to beat up peaceful voters last weekend; Humans who made a choice.

i understand that a lot of this is about the feeling that catalans do not get representation. do the catalans get no (proportional) say in spains politics? do they have no votes in the election of the central government?
Tiamant
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(10-08-2017, 03:37 PM)
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Looking at this demonstration for the unity of Spain... sheesh! Not even bringing people in buses from the rest of Spain they can reach one million.

Also it's always nice to see fascists punching fascists, credit where credit is due.
deathkiller
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(10-08-2017, 03:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by SporeCrawler

i understand that a lot of this is about the feeling that catalans do not get representation. do the catalans get no (proportional) say in spains politics? do they have no votes in the election of the central government?

They have a presence in Spanish politics in fact their obsession with independence caused them (Catalan pro-independence parties) to reject a pact with the second biggest party in Spain which is the reason we have now a right wing government. They are frequently key in giving the biggest parties of Spain enough votes to rule and benefice a lot from that.

If anything they are overrepresented (they get far more seats per vote than minor national parties).
elite09
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(10-08-2017, 04:25 PM)
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A million people apparently is nothing for Catalan nationalist.

They also want us believe that everyone came from other parts of Spain. We know a 100 buses came from other parts of Spain, i don't know how can you fit 1 million people there.

Catalan government controlled media have been insulting the demonstrators all day. Apparently there are 1 million fascist in this country that we didn't know about. Shameful.

Incredible speech by Josep Borrel (member of the catalan socialist (but now fascist according to TV3) party and former head of the EU parliament).
KingSnake
The Birthday Skeleton
(10-08-2017, 04:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tiamant

Looking at this demonstration for the unity of Spain... sheesh! Not even bringing people in buses from the rest of Spain they can reach one million.

Do you have some sources for this accusations?

Also, demanding respect and recognition is not a one way street.

Edit: BBC says there were at least 350 000 people according to the Catalan police. Unless you have a picture with at least 7000 busses arriving in Barcelona. that's a pretty ridiculous statement to make.
Last edited by KingSnake; 10-08-2017 at 04:54 PM.
tuxfool
Member
(10-08-2017, 04:56 PM)

Originally Posted by KingSnake

Edit: BBC says there were at least 350 000 people according to the Catalan police. Unless you have a picture with at least 7000 busses arriving in Barcelona. that's a pretty ridiculous statement to make.

One might even say it is a Trumpian statement to make.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
(10-08-2017, 05:19 PM)
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Pretty uncomfortable with how cAsually some are just calling people fascists. Its not a good look

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