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Prash
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mahonay

Read the thread. We are literally talking about that right now.

No.

This is so messed up!
I H8 Memes
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:15 PM)
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He just didn't like people. Sorry I don't have any links handy but there have been several articles over the last few days on how he interacted with people. He would even make flight plans that went out of his way just to avoid having to talk to air traffic controllers. He just didn't like people.
theofficefan99
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 03:16 PM)
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I do agree that the same level of analysis is pretty much never done for non-white people. I also don't see how it's so hard for ppl to understand "the motive." I knew once they said the dad was on FBIs most wanted that the son inherited psychopathy. The rest doesn't really matter. To do something like this you need to not have any empathy whatsoever.
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by I H8 Memes

He just didn't like people. Sorry I don't have any links handy but there have been several articles over the last few days on how he interacted with people. He would even make flight plans that went out of his way just to avoid having to talk to air traffic controllers. He just didn't like people.

Sounds like he was just an asshole.
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:18 PM)

Originally Posted by Prash

This is so messed up!

Mental health is still an unknown frontier. In 50 years I think it will be quite obvious when someone feels disconnected, disgruntled and/or disturbed. But we ignore a lot of negativity that our own society embraces as the norm, so there's a lot of confusing shit to wade through before it becomes obvious that there are some real problems going on in people.

Anyway the news on this guy is basically that he was mostly normal, which is a bit morbidly hilarious. No archetypical motive. But that might instigate a better insight into these types of problems that caused this.

I don't think the gun debate is the topic here, I think mental health is
Meus Renaissance
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:18 PM)
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The narrative (at least in the US) is they did it to get virgins in heaven, or they hate our freedom while foreign policy-geopolitic considerations are completely ignored. So this selective bias isn't limited to purely race, but can be found whenever it is convenient.
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't think the gun debate is the topic here, I think mental health is

...

He was an armed with 23 assault style guns, thousands of rounds of ammo, and guns are not the topic? What?
VariantX
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:31 PM)

Originally Posted by Meus Renaissance

https://twitter.com/escofree/status/916602715341557760

This is so obvious to anyone. Especially to white people. Everyone on that panel knows shes right and all the hollering, squirming, and outrage in the world won't change that.

That's the infuriating part. They already know and refuse to even have the conversation, let alone a debate about white privilege.
Izuna
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:35 PM)
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"I don't understand how this person does this kind of thing."

...

I think if he weren't white, maybe, they would act like they know.
SoundofSilence
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Prash

This is so messed up!

This is the sort of reaction that really puzzles me. The desperation to find a motivation lies in a need to rationalize the horror. What appears to disturb people the most is the possibility that there is no reason or logic behind such acts of evil. And yet the course of human history is a profound testament to the lack of reason in the face of madness.
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:44 PM)

Originally Posted by Mahonay

...

He was an armed with 23 assault style guns, thousands of rounds of ammo, and guns are not the topic? What?

Exactly. Ban guns and it will be 50 barrels of corrosive acid thrown out the window. It's amazing people think the fix for this is simply banning guns. I wish we did ban guns so we could move onto actually working on these issues
Izuna
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

Exactly. Ban guns and it will be 50 barrels of corrosive acid thrown out the window. It's amazing people think the fix for this is simply banning guns

Excuse me?


Gun don't kill people but mentally ill people with guns kill a lot of people.
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

Exactly. Ban guns and it will be 50 barrels of corrosive acid thrown out the window. It's amazing people think the fix for this is simply banning guns. I wish we did ban guns so we could move onto actually working on these issues

Lol uh... what?

Asking for gun control is all we're doing. A lot of gun owners agree we need to significantly improve gun control in America.

What the hell is wrong with you?
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:49 PM)

Originally Posted by Mahonay

Lol uh... what?

Asking for gun control is all we're doing. A lot of gun owners agree we need to significantly improve gun control in America.

That's cool, I'm on board with them, but there's a more relevant issue here is my point
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

That's cool, I'm on board with them, but there's a more relevant issue here

Guns are 100 relevant because he was armed to teeth.

Dude had zero history of known mental health issues.
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:51 PM)

Originally Posted by Mahonay

Guns are 100 relevant because he was armed to teeth.

Dude had zero history of known mental health issues.

Well then case closed. Ban guns. Problem solved
SoundofSilence
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

Exactly. Ban guns and it will be 50 barrels of corrosive acid thrown out the window. It's amazing people think the fix for this is simply banning guns. I wish we did ban guns so we could mpve onto actually working on these issues

It's not a fix but it's a strong start. It's a bizarrely modern American trait to dismiss all attempts to take remedial action in the face of overwhelmingly ostensible evidence.
Ascenion
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

That's cool, I'm on board with them, but there's a more relevant issue here is my point

What is that issue? If itís the whole evil people are gonna do evil things and you canít stop them argument then I agree, but we can make it extremely difficult for them to be successful.

If itís mental health....good luck. There are people in college that donít believe in it.
Ric Flair
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

Exactly. Ban guns and it will be 50 barrels of corrosive acid thrown out the window. It's amazing people think the fix for this is simply banning guns. I wish we did ban guns so we could move onto actually working on these issues

You don't think there should be a process that makes it at least a bit more difficult to obtain an AR-Motherfucking 15 in this country?
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

Well then case closed. Ban guns. Problem solved

You're not interested in having a discussion so you can feel free to just stop responding.
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:54 PM)

Originally Posted by Ric Flair

You don't think there should be a process that makes it at least a bit more difficult to obtain an AR-Motherfucking 15 in this country?

I don't believe I even implied that. I am clearly stating the problem *here* was more about mental health than it was about the accessability of an AR15.
y2dvd
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

That's cool, I'm on board with them, but there's a more relevant issue here is my point

Nah the weapon that allows people to easily kill on a daily basis is most relevant here.
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:56 PM)

Originally Posted by y2dvd

Nah the weapon that allows people to easily kill on a daily basis is most relevant here.

If you can walk away from this issue with a straight face after culminating like that, fine, but my posts were here to say banning guns is a short-sighted solution

Originally Posted by SoundofSilence

You have evidence that he suffered from a mental health disorder? Let's see it.

Brilliant. No, this might be surprising but no one has evidence. And because there is no evidence we must ban guns. Please stop debating with that type of logic
SoundofSilence
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't believe I even implied that. I am clearly stating the problem *here* was more about mental health than it is about the accessability of an AR15

You have evidence that he suffered from a mental health disorder? Let's see it.
Mr. X
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't believe I even implied that. I am clearly stating the problem *here* was more about mental health than it was about the accessability of an AR15.

How did you figure out it was his mental health? You should be leading the investigation.
Jackpot
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

Exactly. Ban guns and it will be 50 barrels of corrosive acid thrown out the window. It's amazing people think the fix for this is simply banning guns. I wish we did ban guns so we could move onto actually working on these issues

Sure fixes it for other countries.

Also, you can throw 50 bottles of acid 300m in a way that disperses over a large crowd of people? Who needs guns anymore, someone tell the army of this tremendous new weapon!
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:58 PM)

Originally Posted by Mr. X

How did you figure out it was his mental health? You should be leading the investigation.

I don't know, it was really difficult, maybe shooting 500 people had something to do with it. This discussion is becoming numbing
MCN
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by SoundofSilence

It's not a fix but it's a strong start. It's a bizarrely modern American trait to dismiss all attempts to take remedial action in the face of overwhelmingly ostensible evidence.

"It won't 100% fix every single problem, so why bother?"

Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't believe I even implied that. I am clearly stating the problem *here* was more about mental health than it was about the accessability of an AR15.

Ask yourself why did he go and get bump-fire stocks instead of going through the process to get an automatic weapon? Money wasnít an issue, time wasnít an issue... He did it because guns and and bump-fire stocks are so easily available without scrutiny. That is the issue here, someone who was stocking up on firearms could not raise any flags before he killed 60 and wounded ~600 people.
minor effort
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't believe I even implied that. I am clearly stating the problem *here* was more about mental health than it was about the accessability of an AR15.

Every country has mental health issues their populations, but not every developed country has the lax gun regulations the United States does.
Mr. X
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't know, it was really difficult, maybe shooting 500 people had something to do with it. This discussion is becoming numbing

So the tens of millions suffering from mental illness not killing people, how do you explain that?
Big Baybee
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

I don't know, it was really difficult, maybe shooting 500 people had something to do with it. This discussion is becoming numbing

Why was someone you feel has mental health issues able to shoot 600 people?
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 04:02 PM)

Originally Posted by Dubbedinenglish

Ask yourself why did he go and get bump-fire stocks instead of going through the process to get an automatic weapon? Money wasnít an issue, time wasnít an issue... He did it because guns and and bump-fire stocks are so easily available without scrutiny. That is the issue here, someone who was stocking up on firearms could not raise any flags before he killed 60 and wounded ~600 people.

He chose the tool that would get the job done. Take away the option and he will choose others. I am for more and better gun control. My argument is simply that people will still die over these types of issues until we can address the mental health problem in this individual, not when we ban guns. Gun control is an obvious area that needs improvement
minor effort
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

He chose the tool that would get the job done. Take away the option and he will choose others. I am for more and better gun control. My argument is simply that people will still die over these types of issues until we can address the mental health problem in this individual, not when we ban guns. Gun control is an obvious area that needs improvement

Who is advocating for ignoring mental health issues in this discussion? Who?

Yet, you have massive lobbying groups dedicated to ignoring and undoing any regulations among firearms. Which is why we're focusing on gun regulations themselves in this discussion.
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

He chose the tool that would get the job done. Take away the option and he will choose others. I am for more and better gun control. My argument is simply that people will still die over these types of issues until we can address the mental health problem in this individual, not when we ban guns. Gun control is an obvious area that needs improvement

How would he have pulled this off without guns? Explain it to us again.

Your Looney Toons scenario of using 50 gallons of acid was already a banger.

No one is ignoring mental health. It's insulting to throw those under the bus that do suffer from mental health on a daily basis, who yet somehow manage to not fire assault rifles into a crowd of people.
Last edited by Mahonay; 10-07-2017 at 04:07 PM.
RDreamer
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

He chose the tool that would get the job done. Take away the option and he will choose others. I am for more and better gun control. My argument is simply that people will still die over these types of issues until we can address the mental health problem in this individual, not when we ban guns. Gun control is an obvious area that needs improvement

Of course.

But less will.

Gun control's goal isn't to take away every death ever. That'd be ridiculous fantasy land. We can't do that and you know it. What gun control proposes to do is mitigate disaster and lower the rate of gun violence on the whole. It's been proved to work in other countries. Gun violence and gun deaths aren't completely gone, but they drop isn't replaced on a 1:1 basis with some other violence. People aren't slinging vats of acid in other countries because they can't have guns. And when/if they do it's really not as effective as an easily purchased gun.
Spirit of Jazz
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Meus Renaissance

https://twitter.com/escofree/status/916602715341557760

"You assumed that me moment it happened based on his race."
"Yes I did!"

Jesus.
Jackpot
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

He chose the tool that would get the job done. Take away the option and he will choose others.

Not any tool, the best tool. One explicitly designed for allowing an individual to kill as many as efficiently as possible with minimal training & cost. Why do you think the army's go-to weapon is a gun?

Look at the casualty rates for mass-stabbings vs mass-shootings. Are you really that intellectually stunted that the comparison never occurred to you?
4Tran
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:10 PM)

Originally Posted by Jackpot

Sure fixes it for other countries.

Also, you can throw 50 bottles of acid 300m in a way that disperses over a large crowd of people? Who needs guns anymore, someone tell the army of this tremendous new weapon!

I think the point is that if you ban guns it'd make it a lot harder for spree killers to kill tons of people. Which is sort of obvious if you think about it, but the US isn't in a good position to enact anything that would be helpful.
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 04:10 PM)

Originally Posted by Mahonay

How would he have pulled this off without guns? Explain it to us again.

Your Looney Toons scenario of using 50 gallons of acid was already a banger.

No one is ignoring mental health. It's insulting to throw those under the bus those that do suffer from mental health on a daily basis, who yet somehow manage to not fire assault rifles into a crowd of people.

This is a specific type of mental health issue. I'm not including people with OCD with my suggestion at the root cause here. It is more difficult to kill this many people without guns, but certainly still possible, and especially with the premeditated intent that happened here. I don't see where we're disagreeing other than I keep saying the root issue here is mental health, not guns.

It's as if you guys have been fighting the NRA for so long that you can't stop reducing a conversation to simply gun control. I've said we need it. My point is it won't stop the killings
Jackpot
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

My point is it won't stop the killings

And has been repeatedly explained to you, it sure will reduce them. No other country has mass-shootings like the US.
minor effort
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jackpot

Not any tool, the best tool. One explicitly designed for allowing an individual to kill as many as efficiently as possible with minimal training & cost. Why do you think the army's go-to weapon is a gun?

Look at the casualty rates for mass-stabbings vs mass-shootings. Are you really that intellectually stunted that the comparison never occurred to you?

I feel like every time there's a big discussion on gun regulation comes with it mental logistics from people trying to convince us a gun's sole purpose is not killing something.

Originally Posted by GreatestHits

It's as if you guys have been fighting the NRA for so long that you can't stop reducing a conversation to simply gun control. I've said we need it. My point is it won't stop the killings

*sigh*

As it has been pointed out many times over: Nobody is credibly claiming it will stop all killing in this country, but rather reduce it. And if we can't stop all murder in this country, we should work to reduce it.

Why do you think other countries have fewer mass-shootings? Do you think only the US has mental health issues in its population?
Last edited by minor effort; 10-07-2017 at 04:14 PM.
Mr. X
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:12 PM)
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Brown: Isis/Islam
Black: naturally violent
White: what was his motive, what pushed him to this point
DarthWoo
I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
(10-07-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

This is a specific type of mental health issue. I'm not including people with OCD with my suggestion at the root cause here. It is more difficult to kill this many people without guns, but certainly still possible, and especially with the premeditated intent that happened here. I don't see where we're disagreeing other than I keep saying the root issue here is mental health, not guns.

It's as if you guys have been fighting the NRA for so long that you can't stop reducing a conversation to simply gun control. I've said we need it. My point is it won't stop the killings

Strange...it certainly seems to have at least significantly reduced them in every other advanced nation that did exactly that. Not just the mass shootings, but accidental, suicidal, and non-mass-shooting homicidal shootings.

Originally Posted by GreatestHits

He chose the tool that would get the job done. Take away the option and he will choose others. I am for more and better gun control. My argument is simply that people will still die over these types of issues until we can address the mental health problem in this individual, not when we ban guns. Gun control is an obvious area that needs improvement

Please enlighten us on how heíd be able to to inflict the same carnage without a fully automatic assault rifle(s) from hundreds of yards away in a hotel room?
SoundofSilence
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

It's as if you guys have been fighting the NRA for so long that you can't stop reducing a conversation to simply gun control. I've said we need it. My point is it won't stop the killings

The NRA has killed and wounded far more people in the last 30 years than ISIS could ever dream of. They fund and enable the sale of millions of weapons every single year and strong arm and financially influence hundreds of politicians to support their agenda. The NRA has a great deal in common with many terrorist organizatons throughout history but any suggestion that they be labelled as such immediately induces wild protests about "America's freedoms" and the 2nd Amendment. The NRA, all of its supporters, enablers and political allies have blood on their hands.
Mahonay
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by GreatestHits

This is a specific type of mental health issue. I'm not including people with OCD with my suggestion at the root cause here. It is more difficult to kill this many people without guns, but certainly still possible, and especially with the premeditated intent that happened here. I don't see where we're disagreeing other than I keep saying the root issue here is mental health, not guns.

It's as if you guys have been fighting the NRA for so long that you can't stop reducing a conversation to simply gun control. I've said we need it. My point is it won't stop the killings

We're reducing the conversation? You have snapped back with "OK YEAH I GUESS JUST BAN ALL GUNS THEN HUH" several times now.

Also no, carrying out the same kind of attack is not possible with acid instead of guns no matter what crazy ass scenario you conjure up in your mind.
TaterTots
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(10-07-2017, 04:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dubbedinenglish

Ask yourself why did he go and get bump-fire stocks instead of going through the process to get an automatic weapon? Money wasnít an issue, time wasnít an issue... He did it because guns and and bump-fire stocks are so easily available without scrutiny. That is the issue here, someone who was stocking up on firearms could not raise any flags before he killed 60 and wounded ~600 people.

Ding ding ding! This is what I've been saying. He didn't have to do anything illegally. It was easily available to him, so why would he do some jank modification to his firearms when he could go out and purchase a bump stock?
GreatestHits
Banned
(10-07-2017, 04:14 PM)

Originally Posted by Jackpot

And has been repeatedly explained to you, it sure will reduce them. No other country has mass-shootings like the US.

That's great. Again ban guns, then we move onto a different discussion of how do we stop someone from killing tons of people by blowing up a facility etc. Guns seem somewhat trivial when we're dealing with disturbed people who will find any way they can to kill as many people as possible. Your effort to reduce the conversation to guns seems to miss the mark in that aspect. But again, by all means, ban guns and see where we're at then

Originally Posted by Mahonay

We're reducing the conversation? You have snapped back with "OK YEAH I GUESS JUST BAN ALL GUNS THEN HUH" several times now.

Also no, carrying out the same kind of attack is not possible with acid instead of guns no matter what crazy ass scenario you conjure up in your mind.

But what if he builds a trebuchet in the hotel room?!??!

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