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Sanjuro
Inside Man
(07-23-2016, 06:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

Wasn't Stan Lee kind of a dick in his early years at Marvel?

I hear various stories on this. It just seems like he was more proactive, then received a lot of guff from Kirby. My understanding was Kirby didn't want to be involved much with the business side of things initially early on...until he eventually did.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
(07-23-2016, 06:16 PM)

Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

Wasn't Stan Lee kind of a dick in his early years at Marvel?

Maybe behind the scenes, but not to fans. He would have just said "we've read your letters about the last story and we decided the only way to fix it is to make the next one a real classic!" or something like that.
KAOz
Short bus special
(07-23-2016, 06:20 PM)
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Just finished it at a friends house.

Yeah.... this was... not what I expected.

First and second halves feel so disconnected somehow. And the animation throughout is incredibly bad. Really janky and uneven.

And the whole sex-thing with Batgirl is weird. But what I found even weirder was when she was having a jog and the camera zooms up behind her to focus on her ass. Only to get a slightly bit higher up so we can see her ass AND boobs jiggle as she runs. That is everything that is in picture.
Really took me out of it.

TKJ is okey once the main-story starts, but it's still so badly animated. Characters look incredibly uneven all the time.
But Hamill kills it. He really kills it.

All in all; massively disappointed.

But oh! The pictures at the Batcomputer made me go "Hah!" out loud. Very nice easter eggs with the Joker there.
Brianimaniac
Banned
(07-23-2016, 06:22 PM)
Lots of folks straight-up admitting to pirating this, since it's not even out yet.
Sanjuro
Inside Man
(07-23-2016, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

Maybe behind the scenes, but not to fans. He would have just said "we've read your letters about the last story and we decided the only way to fix it is to make the next one a real classic!" or something like that.

Hah. I remember I took a ban sticking up for him. People were along the lines of calling him a despicable human being along with Bob Kane.

I do find a lot of the comic book drama to be fascinating.
JasonMCG
(07-23-2016, 06:24 PM)
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For the sex reason alone, I will never watch this. I saw a clip of it online. It's embarrassing.
MattyG
Banned
(07-23-2016, 06:26 PM)

Originally Posted by SillyNonsense

Wow what


It's true! That's...not how you promote your newest feature.

Holy shit. I would've loved to be in the room and see the reactions from both the panel and the crowd during that exchange.
Nudull
Member
(07-23-2016, 06:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by KAOz

But what I found even weirder was when she was having a jog and the camera zooms up behind her to focus on her ass. Only to get a slightly bit higher up so we can see her ass AND boobs jiggle as she runs. That is everything that is in picture.
Really took me out of it.

Jesus fucking Christ...
Sanjuro
Inside Man
(07-23-2016, 06:29 PM)
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Will this be the first erotic film in the DCAU?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
(07-23-2016, 06:35 PM)

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Will this be the first erotic film in the DCAU?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDqi_8tcxtY
Spehornoob
Member
(07-23-2016, 06:36 PM)
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So, say I skip the first 30 minutes and go straight to the actual Killing Joke parts. What's the word on Conroy and Hamill's performances? I know Hamill's wanted to do this one for a long time.
LowRoller
Member
(07-23-2016, 06:39 PM)
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Wait how are so many people watching it? It isn't even out yet.
KAOz
Short bus special
(07-23-2016, 06:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Spehornoob

So, say I skip the first 30 minutes and go straight to the actual Killing Joke parts. What's the word on Conroy and Hamill's performances? I know Hamill's wanted to do this one for a long time.

Hamill is great. Really gives a great "dual" performance.
Conroy is as boring as always but he does bring a little bit extra this time, which is nice.

The other cast is basically average.

Just try to live through the jankiness and bad animation.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
(07-23-2016, 06:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by LowRoller

Wait how are so many people watching it? It isn't even out yet.

Either at Comic Con or pirating it, would be my guess. It has a theatrical release but that isn't until the 25th.

It might have been released in other regions too, who knows.
GoldandBlue
Member
(07-23-2016, 06:57 PM)
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This movie for me went from wanting to watch it during the limit theater release to not wanting to even bother when it hits Netflix. I knew what the source material was and what happens to Batgirl but fuck them for adding that shit.
EdibleExplosives
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by KAOz

=
And the whole sex-thing with Batgirl is weird. But what I found even weirder was when she was having a jog and the camera zooms up behind her to focus on her ass. Only to get a slightly bit higher up so we can see her ass AND boobs jiggle as she runs. That is everything that is in picture.
Really took me out of it.

wat
Now I almost want to see this just because of how fucking ridiculously terrible it sounds.
Messofanego
Banned
(07-23-2016, 07:13 PM)

Originally Posted by KAOz

And the whole sex-thing with Batgirl is weird. But what I found even weirder was when she was having a jog and the camera zooms up behind her to focus on her ass. Only to get a slightly bit higher up so we can see her ass AND boobs jiggle as she runs. That is everything that is in picture.
Really took me out of it.

Whyyyyyyyy
geomon
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:20 PM)
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If this is true, I am never EVER watching this shit. Fuck outta here with that.
Rooster12
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:22 PM)
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Only reason to watch this is to hear Kevin Conroy's Alan Moore dialogue.

I'm sick of hearing him saying all that generic shit in the Arkham games.
Mutanthands
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:29 PM)
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Just cancelled my pre-order on Amazon. I think I'll wait for it to show up in Netflix.

It's surprising how tone-deaf they were about this. It's like they forgot about the Refrigerators and Women controversy, and inadvertently doubled down on the most problematic part of the story. They could have very easily given Barbara more backstory without adding a one night stand with Batman. On a roof. After they were in a physical altercation with each other.

How do you add a new relationship between the characters to the narrative, bring up issues of mentor/student relationships by doing so, and then top it off with the violence to sex trope? And expect it to go over well?
Brazil
Living in the shadow of Amaz
(07-23-2016, 07:29 PM)
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Oh, so it's a film for people who want to masturbate do Barb.
LiquidSolid
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:31 PM)
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This is just fucking sad. I was never a fan of these direct comic story adaptations because I never felt like they lived up to the original stories, and I haven't seen this but based on what I'm reading, wow. To take an antiquated late 80's story like The Killing Joke, that already treated Barbara as more of a plot point than a character, and make it MORE misogynistic and tasteless, I'm just amazed at this shitshow.

I grew up with Timm and Dini's animated series, they're the ones who made me a DC fan in the first place, but Timm can fuck off now. Dude is out of his mind if he thinks his gross Bruce/Babs shipping is anything but creepy.
Ahasverus
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:32 PM)
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More like the whole 1.5 hours. What a terrible movie from all fronts. Never buying anything from Timm again.
Fj0823
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:33 PM)
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Is it just a little sexy fanservice?

Or is it full low budget ecchi anime levels of unbearable?

Either way, besides the new run, Barbara always has T/A close ups in the comics. Not that it's a good thing.

Edit: Missed the fight to sex with Bruce thing...What the fuck...
Coffee Dog
Banned
(07-23-2016, 07:35 PM)
I mean I guess I'll just YouTube the hammil and conroy monologues eventually. What a total shitshow of an adaptation this was. It doesn't even resemble the source material.
wesleyshark
Banned
(07-23-2016, 07:42 PM)

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Will this be the first erotic film in the DCAU?

Definitely not the first. And this is really tame in comparison. Not sure what people are so bothered by.
Sub Boss
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:47 PM)
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NOO!!
i got my movie tickets :,(
Mutanthands
Member
(07-23-2016, 07:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by wesleyshark

No lol. And this is really tame in comparison. Not sure what people are so bothered by.

It's not the sex. A movie with a sex scene between Bruce and Selina, or Talia would be fine (at least with me). It's more about the appropriateness of Bruce and Barbara, and shoehorning it into The Killing Joke, where it completely muddles up the narrative.
Jarmel
Banned
(07-23-2016, 07:58 PM)
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Sounds awful but not surprised.

This looked like a trainwreck even besides the Babs sex stuff.
Dahbomb
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:02 PM)
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LMAO @ people "watching it at their friend's house".

You guys got friends working in DC/WB?
J-Tier
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:08 PM)
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What the heck? Babs and Bats Sex scene?

DC KNEW that this adaptation was highly anticipated. Why was it executed in such a weird way?
Username1198
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:09 PM)
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Damn, I thought this was goo a be good.

Haven't read the comic in years, but does bats bang Barbara in the comic?
Jarmel
Banned
(07-23-2016, 08:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Username1198

Haven't read the comic in years, but does bats bang Barbara in the comic?

lol no
GringoSuave89
Banned
(07-23-2016, 08:13 PM)

Originally Posted by wesleyshark

Definitely not the first. And this is really tame in comparison. Not sure what people are so bothered by.

Piss poor motivation, makes the female characer (who has had a hell of a popularity boost with her latest ongoing) one note, plays with a pairing that is problematic at best and despised by fans, and adds zero to the overall work.
wesleyshark
Banned
(07-23-2016, 08:20 PM)

Originally Posted by Mutanthands

It's not the sex. A movie with a sex scene between Bruce and Selina, or Talia would be fine (at least with me). It's more about the appropriateness of Bruce and Barbara, and shoehorning it into The Killing Joke, where it completely muddles up the narrative.

That's a fair complaint.

I guess it felt like it made sense to me because in Batman Beyond, it's revealed that Batman and Batgirl had a failed romance in the past. Batman also got Babs pregnant, but she miscarried.

This isn't a defense or a critique, just something that made sense, continuity-wise.
MattKeil
BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
(07-23-2016, 08:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Goodstyle

You can hide behind your snark criticisms, but this story is what made the Joker into an actual character. It developed an actual motivation and reason for being that directly contrasted with Batman's philosophy. It's what solidified the bond between Batman and Joker and what inspired so many amazing Batman stories like the Oscar winning film 'The Dark Knight'. Most people shitting on the story after the fact deeply underestimate the impact it had and what it meant to the comic book world.

This is not accurate. The Joker already had the psychotic clown character we know long before this story, and his special rivalry with Batman was clearly in place. Frank Miller didn't pull the "Joker's in love with Batman" thing out of nowhere in The Dark Knight Returns. Moore was simply building on that existing framework and telling a story that both tackled the unknown potential origin of the Joker and exploring what would cause Batman to cross the line and kill him (and he does kill the Joker at the end of that story).

The modern Joker as we know him was essentially established in the 1978 Detective story "The Laughing Fish," which is the basis for the entire TAS Joker and clearly Hamill's touchstone for how to play him. The Killing Joke was sort of the crescendo of that take on the character, but it certainly didn't create it.
rakhir
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by wesleyshark

That's a fair complaint.

I guess it felt like it made sense to me because in Batman Beyond, it's revealed that Batman and Batgirl had a failed romance in the past. Batman also got Babs pregnant, but she miscarried.

This isn't a defense or a critique, just something that made sense, continuity-wise.

The Beyond stuff bothered me, but they never really talked about when that relationship happened. I always assumed (for my sakes, to be honest) that they got together when Barbara was older and stopped being Batgirl. It wouldn't be so icky then. (EDIT: i've watched the scene from Beyond and she staid that she stayed with Bruce while being Batgirl, but it happened after Nightwing left).

But this movie shows that they started this when he was still her boss in a sense, a friend of her dad and even a father figure of sorts. It's now a really bad situation on every level imaginable.
LewieP
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:37 PM)
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I didn't think it was that bad. I thought it worked.

Clearly the intention was to demonstrate the dysfunctional relationship between Batman and Batgirl, and his inability to properly connect to people emotionally. Is he really a suitable father figure or mentor for any of the kids he takes under his wing? I don't think so. He's got his reasons for not being able to maintain healthy relationships, and I don't think you can really take his stated motivations for obsessing over his campaign to fight crime at the expense of everyone around him's physical and mental well-being at face value. Batman's not really a hero here.

There was aspects of it that were awkward, but I think it successfully showed Batgirl seeking Batman's approval, but struggling to reconcile that with wanting an increasing degree of independence, and him not really knowing how to handle her.

There is a weird shift between the two parts, but there is clearly narrative connections between the two parts.

Onto the bits that were straight from the comic, I think some of the ambiguity was removed because of the nature of the medium. Especially the ending. I read the comic years ago, so I'm only going on memory.

The epilogue felt like a clumsy bandage on the obviously most problematic aspect of the story, but they had to try.

I think the Joker origin stuff would have been better if it wasn't so much flashbacks, but perhaps done as Joker telling that story. I've never really been happy with the notion of a canonical Joker origin, and much prefer him being of unknown origin, just telling a different story depending on his mood.

It was a bit strange how, given the earlier set up stuff, there wasn't much time given to Batman reacting to Batgirl's injuries. Could have done with a bit more time between them dedicated the fallout.

The animation was better than I expected from having seen the trailers. The core cast were all on form.

I understand some of the negative reactions from people hearing summaries, but if you go into it expecting it to be a story about flawed people pushing the boundaries of what could be consider sane human behavior, I think it works.

I'm not going to pretend there's nothing problematic about it, but it works as a story for me.
Kid Ying
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:44 PM)

Originally Posted by -Plasma Reus-

I thought the animation would be my issue with this movie.
It was the only thing I could deal with.
The story in the first half is shit. They ruined Batgirl. I hope you guys give her a second chance, she's one of the best. Please read/watch Bat Girl Year One.
The actual second part of the movie, is alright for an adaptation of the killing joke. But what came before it will take you out of the mood completely. Didn't even finish watching it.

I didn't like Barbara portrayal in that story at all. She looks like a very self entitled and spoiled girl. A shame cause i was expecting more, but most of those "year one" stories are pretty bad imo.

It's been a while since i've last read, so maybe the book aged well.

Originally Posted by Lord Frieza

A lot of people assume that Babs in raped there, since she's stripped naked. There's also been a lot of debate about that, I think, even though I believe Alan Moore said he never intended for her to actually be raped (I think he said something along the lines that the thought never crossed his mind). It's ambiguous enough, though, that I see where people get it. At the very least, I think you would say that Babs was sexually assaulted there.

Well, he stripped her, so it was definitely a sexual assault. The rape on the other hand is quite ambiguous. I, for one, never saw it and i think it's a bit too much when people tour it as a fact. I never took it that way and Moore saying that he never intended that just cements it for me. I never saw the Joker as someone like this. To me, he's inhuman to the point that he can't even get aroused, much less raping someone. At least that's my interpration of it.

But the book is free for people to interprete whatever way they see fit. I was also surprised the first time i've saw someone saying that Batman killer the Joker at the end of it, since it's also something i've never though. Different people reads in different ways.
Fury451
Banned
(07-23-2016, 08:49 PM)

Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

Moore's disowned it.

And even if he hadn't, without making Barbara an actual character he's done the story a disservice. Because her victimisation eliminates a vital part of the story for the piece to work. She's just there to drive the plot along, and I think deep down Moore knows he fucked up there.

Pretty sure he's said as much before. DC gave him the OK to cripple her, and he's reflected that he probably shouldn't have been allowed to do that. It also seems like he finds that the story itself lacks any meaningful substance, which I don't think is necessarily fair, but I can kind of see where he's coming from. Bolland wasn't all that thrilled with it either if I recall correctly.

For what it's worth, some good character development did ultimately come out of it for Barbara and Joker as well down the line, just not from the base story itself.

Personally I've never ranked the story among the very best (iconic though, for sure), but I think ot did something quite different with the characters, that in today's more progressive understanding has mixed results, but at the time was quite different.
J_Viper
Member
(07-23-2016, 08:51 PM)
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I'll only have respect for Timm for his older work that I grew up with, but watching this made me laugh at people who think he should be in charge of the DCEU

That was not good at all.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
(07-23-2016, 09:11 PM)
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Wait, Batman sleeps with Batgirl? Is that part of the comic book lore or something.
Bear Force One
Banned
(07-23-2016, 09:32 PM)
So glad this is getting trashed.
LiquidSolid
Member
(07-23-2016, 09:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by firehawk12

Wait, Batman sleeps with Batgirl? Is that part of the comic book lore or something.

No, not even remotely close to the comics. It's part of Bruce Timm's creepy fantasies.
wesleyshark
Banned
(07-23-2016, 09:43 PM)

Originally Posted by firehawk12

Wait, Batman sleeps with Batgirl? Is that part of the comic book lore or something.

It's official lore, yes, via Batman Beyond (show/comics).
SoulUnison
Member
(07-23-2016, 10:10 PM)
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I feel so sorry for Hamill, wanting this project to happen for so long and then having it be handled with so little respect.
Messofanego
Banned
(07-23-2016, 10:16 PM)
Bruce Timm's reasoning for the sex stuff and was probably Brian's idea, basically Batman and Barbara are flawed characters who don't understand relationships:

http://www.vulture.com/2016/07/batma...-violence.html
I'm guessing there will be a lot of conversation after the movie's release about the sex scene. At what point in the creative process did you come up with that idea?
It came from a three-way conversation between [co-producer] Alan Burnett, [screenwriter] Brian Azzarello, and myself. I don't remember who initially came up with the idea, but we all kind of jumped on it all at the same time and said, Yeah, that's kind of where we need to go. My memory kind of says it was Brian, maybe, who came up with the idea. But I'm not sure.

But why include it? The two characters have a pretty strong father-daughter-ish relationship bond by that point, not a romantic one.
We were aware that it's a little risky. There's definitely some stuff in that first part of the movie that's going to be controversial. Here's where we came down on that specific issue: It was really important to us to show that both of the characters make some pretty big mistakes. I mean, his “parental skills” aren't that great. Maybe never having had any kids of his own, he doesn't realize that if you tell a kid to not do something, they’re going to want to do it even more. And then she makes some mistakes and then he kind of overreacts to her mistakes and then she overreacts to his overreaction. So it's very human; it's a very understandable story. It's tricky because it's messy, because relationships are sometimes messy. But to me and to Alan and Brian, it was all very fascinating to us to explore that angle.

What kind of reaction are you hoping to get from the viewers?
I have no idea. I mean, I can kind of predict. Some people are going to be just freaking out, and some people might be going, Okay, I can see that kind of makes sense. It's not a comfortable place to be, but … We'll see.
They were aware of Barbara being the women-in-refrigerator trope in the original comic, which is why they had these additional 30 min to expand on her (but it seems to have failed):
When in the moviemaking process did you all realize you needed to change the way Barbara Gordon is depicted, in contrast to the original story?
It's a little complicated. This was actually the third time that we had tried to do The Killing Joke as a movie. The first couple passes we did were going to be just the story from the comic, and we knew from the get-go that the source material wasn't long enough to support an entire feature. Our original plan was to make it like a mini-movie — a half hour, maybe 45 minutes. But the last time it came up, we looked at it and thought, We should somehow expand it to a full feature length.

Knowing that we had that much time to play around with, we realized we didn't want to just pad the story out by adding a bunch of business in between all the different sequences in the original comic, so we thought, Hey, we could actually use that extra story length to address one of the issues that I kind of always had with the comic in the first place. Even back when I first read it, I was very aware that Barbara was basically there just to be maimed and set Batman off on his quest to find the Joker and save Commissioner Gordon. This was years before the term women in refrigerators was coined, but it's the classic woman-in-the-refrigerator situation, where the female in the story is basically only used as a plot device for the male protagonist.

So we thought, If we're going to add a whole bunch of new story, let's make it all about Barbara. We decided that it should be dealing with Barbara as Batgirl, so we can spend more time with her and kind of understand where she comes from. It let us spotlight the areas where she's a good crime-fighting partner for Batman, and some other areas where she's not quite a good fit because she comes at crime fighting from a completely different place than him.

The first 28 minutes or so are about Barbara, then the plot of the original comic kicks in. What links those two sections, thematically?
That's the tricky part of it. We deliberately tried to not really link the opening to the Killing Joke part explicitly. There was some discussion about that: Should we try to fold it into the Killing Joke part of the story more? Should we hint at the Joker in the first part? It's kind of an odd structure for a movie. It isn’t one long complete story. It really is two different stories with a break in the middle. We just decided that would be the best way to go with it. I honestly don’t even think of them as being one story. As weird as that may be. We just didn’t go down that route.

In terms of thematics: Boy, I don’t know. It’s probably going to take me years to figure that out. Often these things don’t hit me straight up. A lot of what we do is instinctual and intuitive. There can be deep, thematic resonances I don’t get until years later, when I go, Oh yeah, look at that, how clever we were!

As for viewing it as two stories, were you worried about that coming across as disjointed?
I mean, sure, yes. Here's the thing: The entire movie is a very odd movie. One of the other things that I always had concerns about in terms of adapting this story for a movie was that it doesn’t hit the traditional movie structure. There's not a grand, big, explosive finale at the end, and it ends on a really weird, ambiguous note. Batman never triumphs throughout the entire story. So if it's got this weird, strange structure where the first half doesn’t even barely relate to the second half, it’s like, Whatever — we’ll just do it.
Bruce Timm was mixed on the original comic but didn't want to change it too much:
Given that you’ve always been uncomfortable with the way Barbara was used in the original comic, did you ever consider getting rid of the sexual aspects of what’s done to her? Maybe just have her be crippled and leave it at that?
No. Like I said, ever since the comic came out, I've always been ambivalent about this particular story. It's not my favorite Alan Moore comic, especially compared to the other things he was doing back then, like Miracleman, V for Vendetta, Watchmen, Swamp Thing. It has always disturbed me and I made a real concrete effort going into this project: I’m not going to try to put my own "spin" on it. I’m not going to make it a Bruce Timm movie. Warts and all, the story is what it is. It’s kind of a classic. And as uncomfortable as some of this stuff is, it's not my story. I’m just the guy who’s putting it on the screen, so I didn’t want to change it and make it more palatable to my own sense of taste.

But I think it’s not as extreme as it could’ve been. We didn’t go out there waving a red flag like, Hey, we want an R rating! It’s horrible, but it’s relatively tastefully done, as was the comic. In this day and age, we clearly see way worse things. Even on prime-time TV, sometimes, on shows like Hannibal or even Gotham, in terms of explicit violence. We needed to stay true to the comic.
obin_gam
Member
(07-23-2016, 10:28 PM)
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I think those responses are valid.
lightskintwin
Banned
(07-23-2016, 10:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Messofanego


"Knowing that we had that much time to play around with, we realized we didn't want to just pad the story out by adding a bunch of business in between all the different sequences in the original comic,"

They were better off just doing this.
Sub Boss
Member
(07-24-2016, 12:08 AM)
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oh my god, that interview reads like they didnt had any idea what to do with this movie.

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