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lightskintwin
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:46 PM)
I've never read a Batgirl comic so I have no idea how she's characterized there but in this movie it's a mess. This first 30 minutes is a completely different story that has nothing to do with the Killing Joke, while the remaining 45 minutes is a faithful adaptation of the comic.

The first 30 minutes revolves around Batgirl, Batman, and a stereotypical Italian Mafia. Batgirl is supposedly a working professional at the library who appears to fight crime in order to gain Daddy's, i mean, Batman's attention. Instead of a mature adult woman superhero, she comes across as a rebellious, hormonal teenager longing to be noticed by a man. So much so, that when Batman ignores her she seems to be slightly intrigued by a criminal Mafia's son who outwardly shows his affection for her and leads her into traps which Daddy, I mean, Batman gets her out of. To top it all off, Batgirl is constantly prodded by her stereotypical gay coworker about her lack of dating life, while Batgirl drops hints about a man in her life (Batman).

Batman the entire time shows no emotion whatsoever. After Batman saves Batgirl, Batman reprimands her. I kid you not, the argument sounds like it's between a Father and his disobedient teenage daughter. They get into a fight, Batman easily dodges all her moves until the last kick which Batman catches, but Batgirl flips him on his back and she lands on top of him. Batgirl breathing hard looks him in his eyes and then starts passionately kissing him. She then takes her mask off, then her shirt off, and they have sex. This scene feels so forced.

Afterwards Batman becomes a player, and never calls Batgirl again. And Batgirl is all clingy and needs a pep talk from her gay co worker to call him. LOL

This story is executed so bad and adds nothing to The Killing Joke. Not to say fleshing out Barbara's past as Batgirl couldn't have worked, because it could but they handled it so goddamn awful I'm surprised it actually made it into the film. If anything they could've used this time to flesh out Barbara and her Father's relationship to add more stakes when the Joker comes to visit and does his thing.

Also the ending, which is faithful to the comic, does not translate well at all in this film. However it's nowhere near as bad as the first 30 minutes. They were better off never making the 30 minutes and only making the remaining 45 minutes of this film.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts, and hopefully keep your expectations in check. Anybody else seen this yet?
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:47 PM)

Instead of a mature adult woman superhero, she comes across as a rebellious, hormonal teenager longing to be noticed by a man.

That is Batgirl, though.
Media
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:48 PM)
Everything I am hearing about this makes me never, ever want to see it.
obin_gam
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:50 PM)
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I'll keep my expectations in check. Not because what is said in the op, but because GAF has a tendency to over-exaggerate and nearly burst the hyperbole-meter when it comes to changes in adaptations.
henhowc
(07-23-2016, 12:50 PM)
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you know this just makes ya'll want to watch it more to see the trainwreck lol
Moaradin
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:51 PM)
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It looked pretty awful so that doesn't surprise me
Corpsepyre
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:52 PM)
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The first 30 minutes did absolutely nothing for me. The rest, the main adaptation, is pretty good though! The ending was rock solid.
lightskintwin
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:53 PM)

Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

That is Batgirl, though.

It's not executed well then, plus all indications seem to show she's a grown ass woman. Her scenes with her at work at the library, her professional outfits along with her Gay coworker, are reminiscent of corporate office scenes in sitcoms.
UKUMI0
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:53 PM)
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Honestly this sounds like the Batgirl from around when this was published. Not saying she should be portrayed that way, but it seems they're sticking close to the original material of the time.

Not sure I'm a fan of the added fluff though I guess the Killing Joke didn't have enough for movie length.

EDIT: So apparently I completely skimmed over the part where they had sex. What? I do not remember that part from any of the comics.
Sblargh
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:54 PM)
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Batman the entire time shows no emotion whatsoever. After Batman saves Batgirl, Batman reprimands her. I kid you not, the argument sounds like it's between a Father and his disobedient teenage daughter. They get into a fight, Batman easily dodges all her moves until the last kick which Batman catches, but Batgirl flips him on his back and she lands on top of him. Batgirl breathing hard looks him in his eyes and then starts passionately kissing him. She then takes her mask off, then her shirt off, and they have sex. This scene feels so forced.

What? Why?
Weird. Why?

Real question. Apart from the habitual juvenile joke about Robin, does Batman have any history of sexual relationship with any member of the bat-family?
Jackpot
Junior Member
(07-23-2016, 12:54 PM)
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I kid you not, the argument sounds like it's between a Father and his disobedient teenage daughter.........she lands on top of him. Batgirl breathing hard looks him in his eyes and then starts passionately kissing him. She then takes her mask off, then her shirt off, and they have sex. This scene feels so forced.

That sounds gross.

I didn't read the Killing Joke but I had my suspicions about the film as all the promotion and references always seems to focus on the Joker undressing and torturing Barbara.
sirap
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:55 PM)
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Haven't seen it yet, but that sounds like Batgirl from that era.
SchrodingerC
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:55 PM)
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I kid you not, the argument sounds like it's between a Father and his disobedient teenage daughter. They get into a fight, Batman easily dodges all her moves until the last kick which Batman catches, but Batgirl flips him on his back and she lands on top of him. Batgirl breathing hard looks him in his eyes and then starts passionately kissing him. She then takes her mask off, then her shirt off, and they have sex.

Oh god, the pseudo dysfunctional 'father, daughter' dynamic makes that sex scene 10 times worse.
TEJ
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by henhowc

you know this just makes ya'll want to watch it more to see the trainwreck lol


Nope, knowing this makes me want to save my money...

Originally Posted by Jackpot

That sounds gross.

I didn't read the Killing Joke but I had my suspicions about the film as all the promotion and references always seems to focus on the Joker undressing and torturing Barbara.

He shoots her and undresses her, and takes photos to torment com gordon.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:55 PM)

Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

That is Batgirl, though.

It's a version of Batgirl that no longer exists in the comics.

Originally Posted by obin_gam

I'll keep my expectations in check. Not because what is said in the op, but because GAF has a tendency to over-exaggerate and nearly burst the hyperbole-meter when it comes to adaptations.

People who were at the first showing of this at SDCC expressed the same opinion. Azzarello, the screenwriter, was boo'd at the Q&A.
exmachina64
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:56 PM)
This completes DC Animation's descent into irrelevant trash.
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 12:56 PM)

Originally Posted by lightskintwin

It's not executed well then, plus all indications seem to show she's a grown ass woman. Her scenes with her at work at the library, her professional outfits along with her Gay coworker, are reminiscent of corporate office scenes in sitcoms.

Noted, but she becomes Batgirl as an act of rebellion and because she's inspired by Batman in almost every incarnation. So that in itself is faithful to the comic-book. That was my point, that it was faithful. I've no idea whether it was done well, but from the POV of a comic-book reader - in theory - there's nothing wrong with the idea of her being hormonally driven and rebellious.
strafer
member
(07-23-2016, 12:57 PM)
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so they managed to fuck it up. well great.
G-Fex
(07-23-2016, 12:57 PM)
So I assume a HUGE backlash for this from batfans?


Incoming kevin smith rant
obin_gam
Member
(07-23-2016, 12:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

It's a version of Batgirl that no longer exists in the comics.


People who were at the first showing of this at SDCC expressed the same opinion. Azzarello, the screenwriter, was boo'd at the Q&A.

haha wow :D Is there a video of the panel?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:00 PM)

Originally Posted by obin_gam

haha wow :D Is there a video of the panel?

No. A comic Journalist talked about it on twitter.
DrunkShogun
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:01 PM)
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Guess it's another monkey paw wish. Been a few of those recently. It's a shame it didn't work out, but at least people can move on from asking dc to adapt the killing joke.
Shanks D Zoro
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:03 PM)
It was poorly executed,

Just makes Batman look like a dick at the end of the film.
lightskintwin
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:03 PM)

Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

Noted, but she becomes Batgirl as an act of rebellion and because she's inspired by Batman in almost every incarnation. So that in itself is faithful to the comic-book. That was my point, that it was faithful. I've no idea whether it was done well, but from the POV of a comic-book reader - in theory - there's nothing wrong with the idea of her being hormonally driven and rebellious.

Which I figured might have been the case since I've never read her comic book. It just comes across weird in this film because she's a working professional woman. I could almost get the characterization if she was a freshman in college or something.
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:04 PM)

Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

It's a version of Batgirl that no longer exists in the comics.

They're adapting a comic-book which barely exists in the comics.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:06 PM)
This seemed like a bad idea from the start.
Bolland's artwork, which was the best part of The Killing Joke (it's a fairly minor Alan Moore story imho), could never be translated into animation and certainly not on a small budget. And no matter how they approached the Batgirl aspect of the story, there was no way they could do it in a satisfying manner.

I still think the claims of DC animation being complete trash now are insane. Yes, they are very hit and miss these days, but Flashpoint and Gods and Monsters weren't that long ago. I'm still excited for the future.
BodiesWithoutOrgans
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:06 PM)
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The movie sucked anyway the hole thing was bad
Kanik
Sonic handles my blue balls
(07-23-2016, 01:06 PM)
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Yikes. Now do I cancel my Monday theater tickets?

WhateverItTakes
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:08 PM)

Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

Noted, but she becomes Batgirl as an act of rebellion and because she's inspired by Batman in almost every incarnation. So that in itself is faithful to the comic-book. That was my point, that it was faithful. I've no idea whether it was done well, but from the POV of a comic-book reader - in theory - there's nothing wrong with the idea of her being hormonally driven and rebellious.

Agreed, like it's okay for her to have a crush on Bruce I suppose. Understandable for her character. Less so that she screws the guy so suddenly and he's down for it. I know Batman's DAMAGED (cus he's all messed up y'know?) but this puts him in a super negative light which doesn't really make sense. His whole thing is not letting people close and he still does shit like this?
Nokagi
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:08 PM)
I thought the whole movie was pretty bad. Even the stuff that was exactly like the comic just didn't come off as well. Especially the ending. I thought it worked really well in the book but for whatever reason it just fell flat here.
lightskintwin
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:09 PM)

Originally Posted by BodiesWithoutOrgans

The movie sucked anyway the hole thing was bad

I'm kinda inclined to agree. It's just the 45 minutes is a faithful adaptation for those fans that enjoyed the comic. i just don't think it translated that well to film, but it wasn't as godawful as the first 30 minutes.

Originally Posted by Nokagi

I thought the whole movie was pretty bad. Even the stuff that was exactly like the comic just didn't come off as well. Especially the ending. I thought it worked really well in the book but for whatever reason it just fell flat here.

Yep, my sentiments exactly.
jim-jam bongs
most certainly will not be getting forcibly fucked by a gigantic canoe
(07-23-2016, 01:10 PM)
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What the fuck? I get that the material might have been tough to stretch to 90 mins, but the stretching sounds terrible. I guess Alan Moore gets to continue his unbroken record for being angry at film adaptations of his books.
sensui-tomo
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:11 PM)
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I might have a hard time understanding (which might be due to me just waking up) but is this movie accurate to the story or does it take liberties?
lightskintwin
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:12 PM)

Originally Posted by sensui-tomo

I might have a hard time understanding (which might be due to me just waking up) but is this movie accurate to the story or does it take liberties?

it's like a 30 minute episode of a different story starts and then afterwards the remaining 45 minutes is The Killing Joke.
UnemployedVillain
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:13 PM)
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I don't remember them having sex when I read it. What the fuck...
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:13 PM)

Originally Posted by WhateverItTakes

Agreed, like it's okay for her to have a crush on Bruce I suppose. Understandable for her character. Less so that she screws the guy so suddenly and he's down for it. I know Batman's DAMAGED (cus he's all messed up y'know?) but this puts him in a super negative light which doesn't really make sense. His whole thing is not letting people close and he still does shit like this?

I'm just annoyed that she takes the mask off. I mean everyone knows that they should leave the masks on, it's better that way.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by strafer

so they managed to fuck it up. well great.

I started out my response trying to say that I felt like DC had made a few huge creative missteps, but outside of BvS, I had a hard time coming up with SPECIFIC examples.

Still, I do find it disappointing that this is how Barbara Gordon is being portrayed in one of their flagship animated films, and no less as an extension of one of the most controversial incidents to ever happen to the character in one of the most well-known Batman stories of all time.

It's got the very ethically questionable teacher-and-student relationship dynamic being kind of violated. It sounds like it's cliche characterization that is under reasonable scrutiny in today's social climates and the demand for stronger portrayals of female characters. And finally, it sounds like it is a tonal mismatch for the original Killing Joke story, somewhat diminishing the effect of horror (the opposite of what it seems to want to achieve) of the Joker's actions in the storyline.

Meh, I find it so hard to trust DC to deliver on a consistent basis in any form of media these days.
Sojgat
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by jim-jam bongs

What the fuck? I get that the material might have been tough to stretch to 90 mins, but the stretching sounds terrible. I guess Alan Moore gets to continue his unbroken record for being angry at film adaptations of his books.

He knows The Killing Joke is one of the worst things he's written anyway. I'm not sure he'd really care that they found a new way to make it bad, just that they made it into a movie in the first place.
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Sojgat

He knows The Killing Joke is one of the worst things he's written anyway. I'm not sure he'd really care that they found a new way to make it bad, just that they made it into a movie in the first place.

Aye. I don't dislike TKJ, but it's not even in the top ten Batman stories IMO; let alone something which should be held up as a great comic-book in general.
jim-jam bongs
most certainly will not be getting forcibly fucked by a gigantic canoe
(07-23-2016, 01:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sojgat

He knows The Killing Joke is one of the worst things he's written anyway. I'm not sure he'd really care that they found a new way to make it bad, just that they made it into a movie in the first place.

In isolation, TKJ isn't great. If you consider how it fits within the overall canon of the characters involved though, it's actually pretty excellent. It's never going to hold a candle to Moore's true creations, like V or From Hell; but as a Batman book it's incredible.
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:28 PM)

Originally Posted by jim-jam bongs

In isolation, TKJ isn't great. If you consider how it fits within the overall canon of the characters involved though, it's actually pretty excellent. It's never going to hold a candle to Moore's true creations, like V or From Hell; but as a Batman book it's incredible.

Slight flaw in that it was written in isolation and retroactively made canon. The sole positive of the story is that other writers made it so that Barbara overcame her disability, none of which is in TKJ. In that she's just a sobbing victim. If TKJ had hinted even slightly at Barbara being anything other than a means to break Gordon/Batman, it may have succeeded. As it stands, she's just there to get shot and for angst.
Sanjuro
Inside Man
(07-23-2016, 01:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

Aye. I don't dislike TKJ, but it's not even in the top ten Batman stories IMO; let alone something which should be held up as a great comic-book in general.

Alan Moore?!

I think your point is arguable, but it's generally found somewhere amongst the better Batmang stories.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:31 PM)

Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

Aye. I don't dislike TKJ, but it's not even in the top ten Batman stories IMO; let alone something which should be held up as a great comic-book in general.

I'd argue TKJ is for Joker fans only. Your reading it for the Joker, not anyone else.
WrenchNinja
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:34 PM)
Babs was always a shitty Batgirl especially her reason for becoming her.
jim-jam bongs
most certainly will not be getting forcibly fucked by a gigantic canoe
(07-23-2016, 01:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeathyBoy

Slight flaw in that it was written in isolation and retroactively made canon. The sole positive of the story is that other writers made it so that Barbara overcame her disability, none of which is in TKJ. In that she's just a sobbing victim. If TKJ had hinted even slightly at Barbara being anything other than a means to break Gordon/Batman, it may have succeeded. As it stands, she's just there to get shot and for angst.

Okay, that's fair. I was mainly referring to how it used Batman, the Joker and Gordon; which honestly I think was extremely well done. And the oft discussed ambiguity of the ending, and how that fits in with the themes of the series as a whole, definitely elevated the story for me personally.
Sblargh
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by UnemployedVillain

I don't remember them having sex when I read it. What the fuck...

They don't.

It's an odd odd thing to add. It makes it looks like the problem of the Joker isn't the senseless irrational violence, but that he is stealing Batman's girlfriend. And since Batman apparently doesn't give a real shit about her, it becomes a property problem. He doesn't care about this human being, but it is his human being.

I know it's not that, but, again, it's weird. Haven't watched, so maybe I'm just saying bullshit based on other people's impression, but... like, what?
Kid Ying
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:36 PM)
That whole subplot makes Batman in the ending extra awful. First he ignores the girl he just had an intimate time, then he shares a good laugh with the guy who just paralyzed her a couple of hours ago.

Unbelievable. Well, i never liked the killing hoje that much anyway. Hope they never try to make an animated movie of arkham asylum though.
Sanjuro
Inside Man
(07-23-2016, 01:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

I'd argue TKJ is for Joker fans only. Your reading it for the Joker, not anyone else.

I wouldn't put it in a sub genre or anything.
Pau
Member
(07-23-2016, 01:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

People who were at the first showing of this at SDCC expressed the same opinion. Azzarello, the screenwriter, was boo'd at the Q&A.

Well that's reassuring at least.

And yes it's a terrible depiction of Babs. Only in Bruce Timm's world is she like this.

She is a teenager when she becomes Batgirl but it's not because she wants to get into a guy's pants.
DeathyBoy
Banned
(07-23-2016, 01:42 PM)

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Alan Moore?!

I think your point is arguable, but it's generally found somewhere amongst the better Batmang stories.

Moore's disowned it.

And even if he hadn't, without making Barbara an actual character he's done the story a disservice. Because her victimisation eliminates a vital part of the story for the piece to work. She's just there to drive the plot along, and I think deep down Moore knows he fucked up there.

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