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Antiochus
Member
(08-02-2012, 04:52 AM)
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Unfortunately this is 2012, not 2004.
ferr
Member
(08-02-2012, 04:53 AM)
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Yeah, everyone knows that to achieve success in a software project, just throw bodies at it. More people = more money.
cpp_is_king
Member
(08-02-2012, 04:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mario007

Yeah...it won't be free-to-play, it would mean that they'd be admitting failure and defeat and Square won't do that on a numbered FF title after spending so much money to rebuild it. People really need to realise this.

Many people seem to not understand that f2p actually brings in more revenue than subscription alot of the time. But companies who have no experience with it are understandably scared to take such a big risk on such a big investment.

I do think that ffxiv will eventually introduce a f2p option in a similar vain to what SWTOR recently announced. I think thats actually a great model. You get To play the whole game, but just with some limitations

I guess you can say thats admitting defeat, but its actually just increasing revenue. SWTOR has probably 900k subscribers. Thats alot. There's nothing defeatist about them going f2p because its hard to argue that an mmo with 900k subscribers is anywhere close to defeated. the same would be true for ff14, assuming v 2.0 ends up actually being as good as it looks
Last edited by cpp_is_king; 08-02-2012 at 05:02 AM.
ferr
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by cpp_is_king

Many people seem to not understand that f2p actually brings in more revenue than subscription alot of the time. But companies who have no experience with it are understandably scared to take such a big risk on such a big investment.

I do think that ffxiv will eventually introduce a f2p option in a similar vain to what SWTOR recently announced. I think thats actually a great model. You get To play the whole game, but just with some limitations

Agreed about F2P. The AppStore has proven this, nearly all top grossing games are freemium. Freemium brings in more people, and so many end up spending more than what they would in a subscription model. It's like a drug dealer giving samples to new customers.
cpp_is_king
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by ferr

Agreed about F2P. The AppStore has proven this, nearly all top grossing games are freemium. Freemium brings in more people, and so many end up spending more than what they would in a subscription model. It's like a drug dealer giving samples to new customers.

Well i disagree a little here. The MMO F2P model is not the app store f2p model. With an mmo, the idea is to give them an excuse to get addicted to the game and want to subscribe. So you give them most of what the game has to offer, but leave out the best parts. Then try to convert them.

I seriously doubt ff14 or swtor would ever do f2p with micro transactions because a game with MTX has to be designed around MTX from the getgo
ferr
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by cpp_is_king

Well i disagree a little here. The MMO F2P model is not the app store f2p model. With an mmo, the idea is to give them an excuse to get addicted to the game and want to subscribe. So you give them most of what the game has to offer, but leave out the best parts. Then try to convert them.

I seriously doubt ff14 or swtor would ever do f2p with micro transactions because a game with MTX has to be designed around MTX from the getgo

They'll get there eventually. WoW sells pets and mounts already so it doesn't have to be designed from the ground up to implement the model. Any of these MMOs could pretty easily just add something like 'Unlock this high level dungeon for 400 rubies' to a free model.
Thoraxes
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Error

So basically it's going to fail. Once GW2 drops no one will really care about this.

XIV and GW2 are completely different MMO experiences. The only thing they feel the same as is the fact they're an MMO. Other than that, it's like comparing apples and oranges.
TheBaronOfNA
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Thoraxes

XIV and GW2 are completely different MMO experiences. The only thing they feel the same as is the fact they're an MMO. Other than that, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Wah?
Thoraxes
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheBaronOfNA

Wah?

I mean MMO in the term in that they are massively multiplayer online experiences. The gameplay, systems, and progression are completely different beasts entirely. The two games are so different, and anyone who has played both can easily attest to this.
Psychotext
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:27 AM)
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Stands to reason that eventually one of the final fantasies would be just that...
laika09
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(08-02-2012, 05:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Psychotext

Stands to reason that eventually one of the final fantasies would be just that...

Uh, okay. Not this one though.
Jawmuncher
(08-02-2012, 05:34 AM)
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looks like they're trying to fix the damage from 13.
Which I still didn't think was bad, but definetly a let down when you think of a "nextgen" final fantasy.
elohel
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jawmuncher

looks like they're trying to fix the damage from 13.
Which I still didn't think was bad, but definetly a let down when you think of a "nextgen" final fantasy.

think again

jk

and yeah seems like a lot of damage control
duckroll
mashadar's Nekomimi slave
(08-02-2012, 05:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jawmuncher

looks like they're trying to fix the damage from 13.

But they're still continuing to make FFXIII games. A new one will be announced next month. They're clearly very proud of it.
hteng
Banned
(08-02-2012, 05:45 AM)
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They can turn this around, I haven't gotten so excited after jumping back into the game at version 1.2. This game is more Final Fantasy than any FF released thus far, with all the throw backs/ cameos/ classics built into the world tightly.

For once they are actually looking at the greater picture and long run, the amount of devotion that yoshida and his team pour in is just amazing. Even if it fail, at least its something they really put their heart & soul into.

If you have time, look up their recent interviews. it shows how they are willing to change and make it right.

http://www.rpgsite.net/articles/397-...oper-interview
Psychotext
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by laika09

Uh, okay. Not this one though.

Sure, but they're running themselves into the ground slowly but surely. They're already done significant damage to the brand.
elohel
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by duckroll

But they're still continuing to make FFXIII games. A new one will be announced next month. They're clearly very proud of it.

thats true, forgot about that lol
IchigoSharingan
Member
(08-02-2012, 05:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by BrokenEchelon

They are pouring so much money, time and manpower into such a failure of a game. It's a fucking miracle that Square Enix still exists as a company.

Welp, not for long.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
(08-02-2012, 05:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by cw_sasuke

I wish SE had just developed new MMORPG IPs instead of pushing their classic IPs like FF/DQ into that area.

so that they can make even less money?

thats real smart.


the only thing i wish is that they didnt name them a mainline #.
hteng
Banned
(08-02-2012, 06:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by davepoobond

so that they can make even less money?

thats real smart.


the only thing i wish is that they didnt name them a mainline #.

what does naming the game as a mainline # has to do with anything? it's just a name.

is it because it'll tarnish your collection of played FFs? christ why are ppl still arguing about this.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
(08-02-2012, 06:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by hteng

is it because it'll tarnish your collection of played FFs?

yes.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
(08-02-2012, 06:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by BrokenEchelon

They are pouring so much money, time and manpower into such a failure of a game. It's a fucking miracle that Square Enix still exists as a company.

It's cause MMORPGs are cashcows once they take-off, so SE's gonna do everything in its power to make the game happen. I don't care for it at all, but if it means the next few FF's will be off-line then I'll be glad. Maybe they should just throw Toriyama on the FFXIV board while they're at it. The two will keep eachother busy nicely.
EternalGamer
Banned
(08-02-2012, 06:16 AM)
So if I buy this for $10 from Gamestop I will be able to check out this 2.0 relaunch if I dont sign up for my free month until then?

I have never played an MMO in my life but I have a very good PC and I like the Final Fantasy brand/aesthetic. I even liked FF XIII and played it to completion (yeah the story was bad but the combat and production values were great).

So what says everyone? Worth the $10 try?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
(08-02-2012, 06:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by EternalGamer

So if I buy this for $10 from Gamestop I will be able to check out this 2.0 relaunch if I dont sign up for my free month until then?

I have never played an MMO in my life but I have a very good PC and I like the Final Fantasy brand/aesthetic. I even liked FF XIII and played it to comletion (yeah the story was bad but the combat and production values were great).

So what says everyone? Worth the $10 try?


considering you could spend 60 bucks and a game could be a dud, i'd say you might as well try if you're willing to put the time investment in.
staticneuron
Member
(08-02-2012, 08:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by StrikerObi

Very good point. But that doesn't explain why Square is still pouring money into this one trying to "save" it. They never will. If they were smart they would cut their losses on it.

Square Enix CEO Yoichi Wada has revealed that Final Fantasy XI is the most profitable game in the entire Final Fantasy series.

If they can recapture the success of FFXI maybe it will work out. The company has been around for a long time, so I am sure that their POV about their chances of success may be more informed than people on the outside.
Ventilaator
Member
(08-02-2012, 08:19 AM)
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I'd like to be all "Lol TOR 2" about it, but Final Fantasy XI exists.
cpp_is_king
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(08-02-2012, 09:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by staticneuron

Square Enix CEO Yoichi Wada has revealed that Final Fantasy XI is the most profitable game in the entire Final Fantasy series.

If they can recapture the success of FFXI maybe it will work out. The company has been around for a long time, so I am sure that their POV about their chances of success may be more informed than people on the outside.

It's not just that FFXI was the most profitable FF game, although that's certainly a part of it.

Having a game go down in history as the worst MMO of all time would do far worse damage to their brand than simply not releasing versus 13, for example, or the mediocre reception that 13 and 13-2 got.

People mention that they should cut their losses, but normally the idea of "cutting your losses" implies that the loss actually stops at that point. If they left 14 in the state it was in, the effects would be felt for ages, and the long term effects would be far more damaging than, for example, not releasing Versus XIII.

They're absolutely making the right decision fixing 14, and the fact that it has over 300 people in house on it is not surprising either. I'm going to wager that they pulled everybody off of non-critical projects to get it done, I mean it looks like they re-wrote the entire damn thing from the ground up in like a year, which is pretty freakin ridiculous.

But they didn't really have a lot of options. You wait too long and nobody's going to come back anyway. And letting the game just die would be akin to the Chernobyl disaster, with the fallout doing serious long term damage for years to come.

I mean yea, obviously they should have just got it right the first time. But they didn't, although they're making a pretty damned heroic effort to save it.
History
Junior Member
(08-02-2012, 09:15 AM)
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I think that the defenders are misunderstanding the anger toward SE. Most people are not angry that square enix is continuing to improve the game and sticking by it, but in fact, they are angry that the game is not free to play when it should be.
Dunan
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(08-02-2012, 09:40 AM)
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I'm not much of an MMO fan -- I play my games slowly enough, and come back to them after sufficiently long intervals, that paying a monthly fee would be a nightmare -- but I still want to give this a shot when it finally comes out on the PS3. I never had the online doodad for the PS2 so I never got to try FFXI (now there's something they should make a single-player adaptation of).

Hiroshi Minagawa UI director (FFXII, Tactics Ogre)
Takeo Suzuki art director (FFXII)
Akihiko Yoshida lead artist (FFXII, Tactics Ogre)

Seeing these three names certainly puts a smile on my face!

...wait, that mean they're not working on another, more interesting, single-player project. Hurry up and get FFXIV out the door so that they can make a non-MMO!
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
(08-02-2012, 09:47 AM)
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What is the record of the most amount of people working on a single game project? Anyone knows?

Assassin's Creed games, perhaps? Or maybe Rockstar games?
StuBurns
just talking loud
and saying nothing
(08-02-2012, 09:52 AM)
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More than a thousand people worked on GTA4, but not at any one time.
hteng
Banned
(08-02-2012, 10:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by History

I think that the defenders are misunderstanding the anger toward SE. Most people are not angry that square enix is continuing to improve the game and sticking by it, but in fact, they are angry that the game is not free to play when it should be.

Most also don't understand that SE's key market is in Japan and that going free to play would only cheapen their product (in their opinion anyway). But really they can go free to play if shit really hits the fan later. Ppl that missed the first tune around can join later. What's there to get angry about?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
(08-02-2012, 10:43 AM)

Originally Posted by cpp_is_king

It's not just that FFXI was the most profitable FF game, although that's certainly a part of it.

Having a game go down in history as the worst MMO of all time would do far worse damage to their brand than simply not releasing versus 13, for example, or the mediocre reception that 13 and 13-2 got.

People mention that they should cut their losses, but normally the idea of "cutting your losses" implies that the loss actually stops at that point. If they left 14 in the state it was in, the effects would be felt for ages, and the long term effects would be far more damaging than, for example, not releasing Versus XIII.

They're absolutely making the right decision fixing 14, and the fact that it has over 300 people in house on it is not surprising either. I'm going to wager that they pulled everybody off of non-critical projects to get it done, I mean it looks like they re-wrote the entire damn thing from the ground up in like a year, which is pretty freakin ridiculous.

But they didn't really have a lot of options. You wait too long and nobody's going to come back anyway. And letting the game just die would be akin to the Chernobyl disaster, with the fallout doing serious long term damage for years to come.

I mean yea, obviously they should have just got it right the first time. But they didn't, although they're making a pretty damned heroic effort to save it.

Nice post.
Zeouterlimits
Member
(08-02-2012, 02:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thoraxes

I mean MMO in the term in that they are massively multiplayer online experiences. The gameplay, systems, and progression are completely different beasts entirely. The two games are so different, and anyone who has played both can easily attest to this.

Sure, but it, WoW & GW2 etc draw from a lot of the same user base, at least when you get to big active numbers they all desperately want.
The masses only have so much time/interest.

Originally Posted by cpp_is_king


I mean yea, obviously they should have just got it right the first time. But they didn't, although they're making a pretty damned heroic effort to save it.

The point is less about whether we will get a better game out of it but whether it will stand to them financially to be doing this.
dramatis
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(08-02-2012, 02:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by History

I think that the defenders are misunderstanding the anger toward SE. Most people are not angry that square enix is continuing to improve the game and sticking by it, but in fact, they are angry that the game is not free to play when it should be.

I think you're mistaking what the opposition is thinking, which is that the amount of resources put fixing 14 could have been used on Versus or another project. It's possible to consider 14 2.0 "a new game", but you should acknowledge that a significant chunk of the FF fanbase didn't play 11 and have no interest in 14, and therefore would prefer SE spending on other game projects.
Cromat
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(08-02-2012, 02:54 PM)
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I simply don't believe they have the capacity to make great games anymore. They seem to have lost it since 2006, even earlier if the second half of FF12 is any indication.
laika09
Member
(08-02-2012, 04:34 PM)
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Can you jump in 2.0?
Kuro268
Junior Member
(08-02-2012, 04:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by laika09

Can you jump in 2.0?

Yes.

Sallokin
Member
(08-02-2012, 06:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kuro268

Yes.

Do we know if It has any gameplay significance or is it in so fans can check it off their complaint list?
luca1980
Banned
(08-02-2012, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cromat

I simply don't believe they have the capacity to make great games anymore. They seem to have lost it since 2006, even earlier if the second half of FF12 is any indication.

Indeed. Only exception is to remake (godly and with Matsuno of course)
Larson Conway
Member
(08-02-2012, 07:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Khezu

That seems like an insane amount of wasted resources.

Ditto.
cpp_is_king
Member
(08-02-2012, 07:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zeouterlimits

The point is less about whether we will get a better game out of it but whether it will stand to them financially to be doing this.

Sure, but hindsight is always 20/20. If they're wrong and 2.0 doesn't catch on people will say "god they were so stupid they should never have done that in the first place". But they're not omniscient, and neither is anyone else.

I think given the state of the franchise and the risk involved with doing nothing and letting the game die, they are probably making the right decision. Given the complete shift in direction that they went from 1.0 to 2.0 it's clear that they've learned something.

Even if they end up being successful and executing this perfectly, the result will still be drastically worse than if they had just gotten it right the first time. But it's too late for that, so dramatically worse is the best they can hope for, with the alternative being catastrophic.

The thing is, IF (and obviously it's a big if) 2.0 succeeds this could be a big learning experience for SE which they otherwise would never have had. I mean I'm not talking like it goes on to save the company from ultimate disaster, but if it gets enough subscribers and players that are happy with it, and if the game receives an ultimately positive reception, it may serve as a wake up call to them that they've been doing it all wrong for the past few games, and now here you have an example of how to do it right.

It could serve as a turning point where they begin to start taking customers' feedback more seriously, interacting more, and indicate a shift in philosophy going for. That alone will be worth the price of all these so called "wasted" resources. But if they had just given up and never even tried to fix it with 2.0, that wouldn't happen.
Last edited by cpp_is_king; 08-02-2012 at 07:18 PM.
Kuro268
Junior Member
(08-02-2012, 07:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sallokin

Do we know if It has any gameplay significance or is it in so fans can check it off their complaint list?

Currently it is for the latter unfortunately (and to stop spell casts). But there was recently a post on the official forums asking the community what they wanted the devs to do with jump feature. I've been trying to be the voice of reason in saying that it should be used in battle and to reach higher ground/exploration but most of the posters there are morons and respond with "no WoW bunny hopping" or "Get rid of it". ;/

Yoshi-P needs to be smart and take very little of the suggestions/feedback on the official forums to heart. Those people can literally destroy any chances of this game making a comeback.
staticneuron
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(08-02-2012, 07:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by cpp_is_king


The thing is, IF (and obviously it's a big if) 2.0 succeeds this could be a big learning experience for SE which they otherwise would never have had. I mean I'm not talking like it goes on to save the company from ultimate disaster, but if it gets enough subscribers and players that are happy with it, and if the game receives an ultimately positive reception, it may serve as a wake up call to them that they've been doing it all wrong for the past few games, and now here you have an example of how to do it right.

It could serve as a turning point where they begin to start taking customers' feedback more seriously, interacting more, and indicate a shift in philosophy going for. That alone will be worth the price of all these so called "wasted" resources. But if they had just given up and never even tried to fix it with 2.0, that wouldn't happen.

I see what you are saying. They don't want to ruin the FF name so they wouldn't have left it alone. They don't want to break trust.

Originally Posted by Sallokin

Do we know if It has any gameplay significance or is it in so fans can check it off their complaint list?


It's a new engine. No one knows yet.
Kagari
Super Mode
(08-02-2012, 08:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by duckroll

But they're still continuing to make FFXIII games. A new one will be announced next month. They're clearly very proud of it.

I get the impression that some people in SE are and others... not so much.
Kagari
Super Mode
(08-02-2012, 08:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by RustyNails

Why Nomura's FF vs XIII dev team is treated like red headed stepchild, I will never know.

I would say it's the opposite. They get to operate in secret atop their ivory tower.
Meccanical
Banned
(08-02-2012, 08:21 PM)

Originally Posted by Kagari

I would say it's the opposite. They get to operate in secret atop their ivory tower.

Lol.

Well to be fair, it seems like Hashimoto and higher ups are the ones that are keeping the games under wraps.

I don't think there is a developer in the world who doesn't want to talk about their game, it's just that PR won't let them.

The reason why Yoshida can is because he NEEDS to build trust after what happened with XIV, the stuff he's doing is seriously necessary because of how awful the previous version was.
Sallokin
Member
(08-02-2012, 08:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kuro268

Currently it is for the latter unfortunately (and to stop spell casts). But there was recently a post on the official forums asking the community what they wanted the devs to do with jump feature. I've been trying to be the voice of reason in saying that it should be used in battle and to reach higher ground/exploration but most of the posters there are morons and respond with "no WoW bunny hopping" or "Get rid of it". ;/

Yoshi-P needs to be smart and take very little of the suggestions/feedback on the official forums to heart. Those people can literally destroy any chances of this game making a comeback.

I would be really interested in it having some kind of tactical purpose in battles. The same goes for exploration/dungeon crawling.
StuBurns
just talking loud
and saying nothing
(08-02-2012, 08:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kagari

I would say it's the opposite. They get to operate in secret atop their ivory tower.

Indeed. I imagine the situation down there being something like this.

"Hey Toriyama, how are your boys enjoying the latest Crystal Tools build you just got? Loving it I'm sure, yeah. Well, it's about time we get a game out, so lets say you and your gang turn this thing around in, oh I don't know, a year, fourteen months? Cool, see you then."

"Mr Nomura-sama, we are humbled by your presence, please, take all the time you need on your Final Fantasy project, two years or ten. We await it eagerly and with patience." (bows)

And it the wait hurts oh so badly.
Cmagus
Member
(08-02-2012, 08:54 PM)
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It doubt it will tank SE fans are too loyal. In all honesty the game really isn't that bad anymore. This game had a miserable launch and reviews were probably some of the worst for SE yet but the game still remains. If this had been any other franchise it would have not been as lucky. I think it comes down to more than just the game. I would say community wise FFXIV has one of the better ones from my experiences.

I also wouldn't go gauging by alot of posts in the numerous FFXIV topics we have had here and elsewhere I would say that is not indicative of how people feel as alot seem to really hate on the game when it is clear they haven't touched it.Certainly had a strong initial lets jump on the hate bandwagon at launch.Luckily that is fading abit.

2.0 will launch fine and I definitely feel that Yoshi-P and team got stuff done with a slew of new content on top of what they already have (minus a few things being removed) it will launch like it should have. As for the 300 members I bet 90% of them are on 2.0 because I honestly couldn't tell you what people have been doing on 1.0 certainly not from the art side of things.

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