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Sho_Nuff82
(10-07-2017, 03:45 PM)
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Important lesson to always document your interactions with HR. When in doubt, use email.

Lawsuits for wrongful termination, ignoring sexual harassment/bullying, and illegal retaliation will often hinge on your ability to produce a paper trail and proof that you handled everything through the appropriate channels and they deliberately ignored or punished you.

Definitely feel terrible for the victims here, guy sounds like a real piece of work. Good on SJ for the suspension.
jstripes
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:45 PM)
"aw shucks, I hope I'm not creeping your out, lol"

Every. Single. Time.
SpaceWolf
Banned
(10-07-2017, 03:48 PM)
This whole incident just makes me feel incredibly sad.
Foggy
Member
(10-07-2017, 03:49 PM)
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It's like people want to maintain that Al Capone was just a business man who didn't pay his taxes.

Prattle on and on about moral obligation of the presumption of innocence while the receipts stack gets higher and higher. Good look.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:31 PM)
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Making appeals to court room style presumption of innocents regarding a victim coming forward about a public figure abusing them is one way to chill the effect of others coming forward in the first place. The law and it's application in court room is already stacked against abuse victims and is an unfathomable hurdle for many victims, especially when a fandom is involved, so they stay silent. Compounding that fear socially is something people need to be aware of and examine how one might contribute to the systemic problems victims face, even if well intentioned.
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 04:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

Making appeals to court room style presumption of innocents regarding a victim coming forward about a public figure abusing them is one way to chill the effect of others coming forward in the first place. The law and it's application in court room is already stacked against abuse victims and is an unfathomable hurdle for many victims, especially when a fandom is involved, so they stay silent. Compounding that fear socially is something people need to be aware of and examine how one might contribute to the systemic problems victims face, even if well intentioned.

And brigading to destroy lives and careers based on bare accusations without evidence is disgusting. Saying " this is something that should be further examined before we conclude guilt or take actions that could harm people" is completely reasonable. In cases such as this, where one accusation without proof was the initial report, there's nothing wrong with waiting. And then, more evidence and investigation has followed, and appear to bear out that one initial report. That this turned out to be the case is not an argument to assume guilt at the mere accusation.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 04:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

And brigading to destroy lives and careers based on bare accusations without evidence is disgusting. Saying " this is something that should be further examined before we conclude guilt or take actions that could harm people" is completely reasonable. In cases such as this, where one accusation without proof was the initial report, there's nothing wrong with waiting. And then, more evidence and investigation has followed, and appear to bear out that one initial report. That this turned out to be the case is not an argument to assume guilt at the mere accusation.

This is all predicated on there being more than one victim and there even being evidence. That waiting and seeing turns into literally nothing as time goes on the victim is left with their abuse and the fallout for daring to come forward about it while abuser gets endless support from their fans and internet lawyers.
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 04:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

This is all predicated on there being more than one victim and there even being evidence. That waiting and seeing turns into literally nothing as time goes on the victim is left with their abuse and the fallout for daring to come forward about it while abuser gets endless support from their fans and internet lawyers.

So to be clear, you are advocating we believe and take action on every accusation regardless of any evidence, corroboration, or proof. Glad I don't live in your world.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

So to be clear, you are advocating we believe and take action on every accusation regardless of any evidence, corroboration, or proof. Glad I don't live in your world.

No I'm simply advocating believing women when they put themselves at risk to admit to their abuse.
SeanTSC
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

So to be clear, you are advocating we believe and take action on every accusation regardless of any evidence, corroboration, or proof. Glad I don't live in your world.

He clearly wasn't being that extreme. Also I think it's perfectly reasonable to take "action" such as not giving people clicks, page views, patreon support, etc until a situation pans out. Withholding community support and siding with victims instead of "waiting and seeing" is a pretty reasonable response.
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

No I'm simply advocating believing women.

Ok, we believe every accusation - what does that mean, or do? It's a nice dodge to the actual consequences that accompany that mere "belief".
MechaX
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Famassu

I don't even remember when was the last time a public figure was accused of these types of things (in more than just some random reddit post with no name or affiliation attached to the accuser) that turned out to be total BS.

I don't know exactly what the breadth is for "these types of things" in this context, but you may want to read up on what happened to DeMario Jackson from the Bachelor.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

Ok, we believe every accusation - what does that mean, or do? It's a nice dodge to the actual consequences that accompany that mere "belief".

The post before yours is basically answers that. What it 'does' is aliviate some of the nightmare other victims face regarding the aspect of coming forward.
Nokagi
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:21 PM)
So still no word from Signore huh? Wonder if he's going to try and fight/deny it or admit to it and "apologize".
Zabka
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nokagi

So still no word from Signore huh? Wonder if he's going to try and fight/deny it or admit to it and "apologize".

"Whoops lol but seriously they looked cute why not? lol jk no but really i'm sorry"
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

The post before yours is basically answers that. What it 'does' is aliviate some of the nightmare other victims face regarding the aspect of coming forward.

What should happen to a person that’s accused?
Nokagi
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Zabka

"Whoops lol but seriously they looked cute why not? lol jk no but really i'm sorry"

Judging by his other messages I wouldn't be surprised if he sent something like that to his wife.
Gentleman Jack
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nokagi

So still no word from Signore huh? Wonder if he's going to try and fight/deny it or admit to it and "apologize".

Trying to get Weinstein on the phone as hard as he can.
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

So to be clear, you are advocating we believe and take action on every accusation regardless of any evidence, corroboration, or proof. Glad I don't live in your world.

There is a lot of difference between believing anything you read online, and leaning towards believing women who come forward about sexual harassment and assault.

Action is taken by authorities if police reports are filed. Nobody is saying to start your own harassment campaign for whatever you read online.

These issues aren't black and white. But if someone comes forward with their story, the first response shouldn't be to downplay it and tell her she is lying. It is to listen and to be supportive. That way, others might also feel they can step forward and tell their stories.
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

There is a lot of difference between believing anything you read online, and leaning towards believing women who come forward about sexual harassment and assault.

Action is taken by authorities if police reports are filed. Nobody is saying to start your own harassment campaign for whatever you read online.

These issues aren't black and white. But if someone comes forward with their story, the first response shouldn't be to downplay it and tell her she is lying.

Where in any of my posts did I advocate downplaying, or calling people liars? Don't accuse me of things I didn't write please.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by KHarvey16

What should happen to a person that’s accused?

That's up to people to decide, there are no standard penalties to apply. I personally would cease any support good given and redirect it to the victims.
ClosingADoor
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

Where in any of my posts did I advocate downplaying, or calling people liars? Don't accuse me of things I didn't write please.

I was not talking specifically about you, but about the responses these kind of things normally generate.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

That's up to people to decide, there are no standard penalties to apply. I personally would cease any support good given and redirect it to the victims.

Really, without any indication that it's true or not? Why?

I don't understand why supporting a person claiming abuse means immediately acting against the accused. If someone brings a claim like that forward, give them everything they need. Be compassionate, support them if they ask for help and listen to what they have to say. But it seems the desire is also to immediately go after whoever is accused, and if you say "woah everyone, let's maybe take a step back and wait for information" you're thrown onto the rapist defense force pile and burned.
SuperBanana
Banned
(10-07-2017, 05:44 PM)

Originally Posted by brawly

.

Fucking hell that's some cringy shit.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
(10-07-2017, 05:47 PM)

Originally Posted by Famassu

Black people do have a shitty situation with the law where they get sentenced for shit they didn't do far more easily than white people do, but don't forget that a big portion (perhaps a majority, even) of sexual harassment & assault cases go unreported and from cases that do get reported, another big portion of them do not result in anything happening against the harasser/assaulter, and from the ones that do result in something, the results/sentences are often too light for the crime commited (a slap on the wrist, perhaps only months in jail).

I'm not forgetting anything. I am a black man I've been raised to never just believe a white womens rape/sexual assault allegations just cuz she says it's true. With its history being what it is I think that's fair. Go google the rosewood massacre. Yea fuck all that 100% believing a women no mattter what nonesense.
Famassu
(10-07-2017, 06:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aizen.S.Kennedy

I'm not forgetting anything. I am a black man I've been raised to never just believe a white womens rape/sexual assault allegations just cuz she says it's true. With its history being what it is I think that's fair. Go google the rosewood massacre. Yea fuck all that 100% believing a women no mattter what nonesense.

No one here were advocating people get out their guns or ropes & go shoot or hang Andy. No one was saying we should believe anyone & everyone coming out of the woods to blame people "no matter what". Again, look at the accusations against the epic voice guy. Unless there are more public displays of blaming other than a random Reddit post, that doesn't seem to have gathered any kind of traction so far because those sound flimsy and come from a source that is more of a "let's wait and see if anyone else comes out to corrobarate that story or others like it. The accusations of the first person to accuse Andy didn't. They sounded exactly like the kind of shit that goes down far too much in this & pretty much every industry. It was a woman with a name & a face & a confirmable connection to Andy, putting herself into a vulnerable position & her reputation in line to accuse Andy. That just didn't scream "attention whore lying bitch" to most of us but a very plausible scenario.

"Fuck this guy" & "Seems like I have to stop watching Honest Trailers" & "I hope he gets fired if this is true" are the extent of a majority of responses who believed the women at first sight before more women came out with their own stories/happenings. Those aren't anything too unreasonable.

It's not like anything remotely similar to the Rosewood massacre was happening here. No one was gathering the lynch mobs ready to kill Andy & all of ScreenJunkies on first sight. It's us hearing the same old song that we've now come accustomed to hearing about popular youtube personas & public figures altogether, so forgive us if we aren't too "this can't be true, not of this funny Youtuber X, we have to wait for absolute, irrefutable proof of this before reacting one way or the other" about it
Scuffed
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:09 PM)
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I don't frequent the content on Screenjunkies much at all. I would see the occasional noteworthy honest trailers but would never watch them regularly. People in power that use their positions to pressure or exploit women are among the most cowardly trash out there.

It would be a good time for any of the talent on that site to splinter off and do their own thing through patreon or something.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by KHarvey16

Really, without any indication that it's true or not? Why?

I don't understand why supporting a person claiming abuse means immediately acting against the accused. If someone brings a claim like that forward, give them everything they need. Be compassionate, support them if they ask for help and listen to what they have to say. But it seems the desire is also to immediately go after whoever is accused, and if you say "woah everyone, let's maybe take a step back and wait for information" you're thrown onto the rapist defense force pile and burned.

Because a women dumping the vileness of the entire internet on herself just to come forward to me is indication that it's true. Which then leads to what I as a person can do and that includes pulling support.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 06:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

Because a women dumping the vileness of the entire internet on herself just to come forward to me is indication that it's true. Which then leads to what I as a person can do and that includes pulling support.

Wouldn't that reasoning suggest a public pleading of innocence also indicates truth?
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

I was not talking specifically about you, but about the responses these kind of things normally generate.

Where are these responses? I haven't seen a single post claiming she's a liar.
Lowmelody
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by KHarvey16

Wouldn't that reasoning suggest a public pleading of innocence also indicates truth?

Considering the woman has everything to lose by coming forward and he has everything to gain by denying it, no I don't think they are equivalent.
JigglesBunny
Banned
(10-07-2017, 06:27 PM)
It’s unbelievable how pathetic and scummy he is and shame on the HR department for not immediately cracking down on him. The reason why so many incidents like this go unreported is because women are afraid to speak up in fear of being ridiculed and disbelieved.

I have the utmost respect for the women who came forward here and I hope they get the satisfaction of watching him punished properly and swiftly for this shit. Not clicking a single video from SJ until I know that a penny will never hit his pocket again.
Bobo Dakes
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

So to be clear, you are advocating we believe and take action on every accusation regardless of any evidence, corroboration, or proof. Glad I don't live in your world.

You do realize by "taking action", the relevant parties would simply be investigating the accused.

What is this leap in logic you keep taking that insists that believing the victim means automatically condemning the accused.

We clarified this over and over again and some of you keep doing this. It's baffling.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 06:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lowmelody

Considering the woman has everything to lose by coming forward and he has everything to gain by denying it, no I don't think they are equivalent.

You assume rational actors on both sides. I'm not sure why. In either scenario one person is necessarily shitty.

Anyway, if you responded to an accusation by acting against whoever was accused and someone questioned why you did that without knowing for sure who was telling the truth, how would you respond? Do you think that's a reasonable question? Does it indicate to you an insensitivity or unwillingness to accept?

What I'm seeing is people judging understanding and the seriousness a person takes these issues by how far they're willing to go to punish an accused person with the smallest amount of information possible. If you want to be sure, you're not serious. If you'd like to see some data, you just don't care about victims. If you don't support immediate punitive action you're discouraging other women from coming forward. I think tying treatment of potential victims to treatment of potential perpetrators is completely wrong.
Baron_Calamity
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by MagicWithEarvin

George Takei

He was know for hitting on and being sexually aggressive towards young male understudies and looking to make a break into Hollywood. Probably no where as bad as what was mentioned here but he did approach them in a position of authority.
commish
Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
(10-07-2017, 06:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bobo Dakes

You do realize by "taking action", the relevant parties would simply be investigating the accused.

What is this leap in logic you keep taking that insists that believing the victim means automatically condemning the accused.

We clarified this over and over again and some of you keep doing this. It's baffling.

Baffling is the best way to put it. This whole thread is baffling. So many people are railing against straw men.
Bobo Dakes
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by KHarvey16

You assume rational actors on both sides. I'm not sure why. In either scenario one person is necessarily shitty.

Anyway, if you responded to an accusation by acting against whoever was accused and someone questioned why you did that without knowing for sure who was telling the truth, how would you respond? Do you think that's a reasonable question? Does it indicate to you an insensitivity or unwillingness to accept?

What I'm seeing is people judging understanding and the seriousness a person takes these issues by how far they're willing to go to punish an accused person with the smallest amount of information possible. If you want to be sure, you're not serious. If you'd like to see some data, you just don't care about victims. If you don't support immediate punitive action you're discouraging other women from coming forward. I think tying treatment of potential victims to treatment of potential perpetrators is completely wrong.

Okay, you guys have to be doing this on purpose because holy fucking shit.

Someone is not immediately punished if they are accused. Also worth noting this is a public fucking figure.

The parties responsible will turn to the accused and say hey, someone made these claims and we're going to investigate them. Feel free to participate in clear your or name, or you know, lawyer up. NO ONE IS PUNISHED UNTIL AN ACTUAL INVESTIGATION IS COMPLETED!!!
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 06:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bobo Dakes

You do realize by "taking action", the relevant parties would simply be investigating the accused.

What is this leap in logic you keep taking that insists that believing the victim means automatically condemning the accused.

We clarified this over and over again and some of you keep doing this. It's baffling.

Simply investigating? Do you live in an alternate world where social media brigading doesn't exist? Or where simple calls for information aren't consistently labeled as "enabling rape culture"? Where universities have misinterpreted title nine to eliminate presumption of innonence, and have had to pay settlements to falsely accused students? see harveys response above. We clarified this over and over again and some of you keep doing this. It's baffling.
7DollarHagane
Banned
(10-07-2017, 06:39 PM)
Given power a lot of people will abuse it. That's always been the way of the world. At least the victims have more of a voice then in the past.
Glass Shark
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:41 PM)
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As a side note to all of this, “I know I’m hot thank you again” is such hot fire. Really sorry the woman in question had to go through that but she handled herself with aplomb.
Bobo Dakes
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by elrechazado

Simply investigating? Do you live in an alternate world where social media brigading doesn't exist? Or where simple calls for information aren't consistently labeled as "enabling rape culture"? See kharveys response above. We clarified this over and over again and some of you keep doing this. It's baffling.

Are we talking about what actually happened or are we talking about your irrelevent hypothetical what if this completely innocent great guy suddenly got accused out of nowhere for no reason by one person? And how unfair that would be.

I'm talking about this subject from the perspective of the person who shared her story multiple times and how that was never good enough until fucking Harvey Weinstein got called out. Also thinking about the woman that had shared her story with his employers and got ignored for months.

But yes, let's talk about your hypothetical poor innocent who was accused and then social media immediately burned him alive without any evidence.
elrechazado
Banned
(10-07-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bobo Dakes

Are we talking about what actually happened or are we talking about your irrelevent hypothetical what if this completely innocent great guy suddenly got accused out of nowhere for no reason by one person? And how unfair that would be.

Are you reading? because we (including you) have been talking throughout multiple replies in generalities.
Bobo Dakes
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:49 PM)
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^ I added to my first statement.

Now thinking back to the Nick Robinson thread and even after the DMs and multiple stories were shared people were still going

"Well, why do you have to ruin his life because of a few DMs, he didn't actually break the law."

In retrospect, none of this should surprise me.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 06:51 PM)
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I find the claim that no one jumps straight to attempting to punish the accused to be pretty ridiculous. After the boston bombing I believe there’s even forum rules in place to address that very thing. Posting unsourced identifications and the like can get you in trouble because the resulting social media slandering/doxing/harassment that inevitably results could be directed at an innocent person.
Ombra
Member
(10-07-2017, 08:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by KHarvey16

I find the claim that no one jumps straight to attempting to punish the accused to be pretty ridiculous. After the boston bombing I believe there’s even forum rules in place to address that very thing. Posting unsourced identifications and the like can get you in trouble because the resulting social media slandering/doxing/harassment that inevitably results could be directed at an innocent person.

Your tag is fitting. If getting doxxed is the worst misguided irrational reactionary people can do to someone who has been wrongly accused with little evidence, I think they would take that over being a documented felon, any day of the week. The fact is people on a message board first taking the side of the alleged victim is not going to convinct the alleged perpetrator of a crime, the court of public opinion has always been iffy at best, but it swings both ways, if someone is proven guilty without a reasonable doubt the former accuser gets to be the bad guy/gal
The One and Done™
Member
(10-07-2017, 08:49 PM)
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What a disgusting pig. I hope he gets what he deserves.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 09:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ombra

Your tag is fitting. If getting doxxed is the worst misguided irrational reactionary people can do to someone who has been wrongly accused with little evidence, I think they would take that over being a documented felon, any day of the week. The fact is people on a message board first taking the side of the alleged victim is not going to convinct the alleged perpetrator of a crime, the court of public opinion has always been iffy at best, but it swings both ways, if someone is proven guilty without a reasonable doubt the former accuser gets to be the bad guy/gal

But why? What is gained by acting quickly in that regard over waiting until there’s more to go on?
Ombra
Member
(10-07-2017, 10:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by KHarvey16

But why? What is gained by acting quickly in that regard over waiting until there’s more to go on?

When you say acting quickly what action are you referring to? I want to choose my words carefully.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(10-07-2017, 10:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ombra

When you say acting quickly what action are you referring to? I want to choose my words carefully.

Social media identification/harassment, contacting employers, doxxing, etc. Basically what we’ve seen countless times. Sometimes, like with the neo-Nazi rallies, we have photos and videos so there’s no question who is who. But we’ve seen people jump into overdrive when the story is still fresh and nothing is really known for sure. Asking people to slow down a bit is met with accusations.

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