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Dark Orchid
Member
(10-07-2017, 12:00 AM)
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I don't blame them for Doubleslap and Comet Punch, it probably came after a lengthy day of trying to localize Pay Day in a way that worked.

Always thought it was weird that the elemental punches were underutilized despite being in the index so early on. I'm glad they were made into TMs in Gen 2 and then apparently being so popular that they had to add them to the third game / remakes nearly every time.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-07-2017, 12:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by unknownstranger

It's stupid how fire punch and thunder punch are still the best widely spread physical moves without recoil for their types. They gave a Pikachu clone the best non-legendary physical electric attack. Fire has more options with Blaze Kick being decently spread, but Sacred Fire is exclusive to Ho-oh and Entei and Heatmor (who's crap) is the only one who gets Fire Lash.

That was one of the bizarrest additions of Gen VII to me---like, why? Who wanted that!?
Nocturnowl
Member
(10-07-2017, 12:28 AM)
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I've never even heard of Fire Lash, where was this when I tried to use my struggle Heatmor in his gen 5 debut?!
Toxi
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(10-07-2017, 12:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

That was one of the bizarrest additions of Gen VII to me---like, why? Who wanted that!?

I love Heatmor.

But it needed so much more just to be viable. Why the fuck did they give it an 80 base power physical move that lowers the opponent's defense when Heatmor's best stat is Special Attack?
CelestialWolfZX
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 12:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

That was one of the bizarrest additions of Gen VII to me---like, why? Who wanted that!?

They also give Toxic Thread (Basically String Shot with Poison Status attached to it) to the Spinarak Line, and only the Spinarak line. And Power Trip (Basically a Dark Type Stored Power) to Krookodile as well (At least Krookodile gets Moxie so it can make some use of it, and Krookodile isn't a dumpster fire of a pokemon stats wise).

I can understand the Alolans getting new moves, but why them? Did at some point they plan to give these Alolan forms and then some Exec said "Nope, gotta be Gen 1 only" or something?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-07-2017, 12:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Toxi

I love Heatmor.

But it needed so much more just to be viable. Why the fuck did they give it an 80 base power physical move that lowers the opponent's defense when Heatmor's best stat is Special Attack?

My idea is make White Smoke also prevent self-decreases of stats and give Heatmor Overheat. Only Torkoal and it have White Smoke, so that wouldn't make them too broken...then again, Shell Smash Torkoal with that White Smoke might be an issue.

Originally Posted by CelestialWolfZX

They also give Toxic Thread (Basically String Shot with Poison Status attached to it) to the Spinarak Line, and only the Spinarak line. And Power Trip (Basically a Dark Type Stored Power) to Krookodile as well (At least Krookodile gets Moxie so it can make some use of it, and Krookodile isn't a dumpster fire of a pokemon stats wise).

I can understand the Alolans getting new moves, but why them? Did at some point they plan to give these Alolan forms and then some Exec said "Nope, gotta be Gen 1 only" or something?

Well, Ariados and Krookodile at least are part of the Alola Dex and the former is a central Pokemon of Guzma who uses the move in one fight (iirc Power Trip isn't used by Guzma or Hapu's Krookodile though), Heatmor isn't even available in S/M! I bet we'll see it in USUM though.
Mr-Joker
Other people suffering isn't my problem and I don't care about it.
(10-07-2017, 12:58 AM)
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I like the Elemental Punches as they are a nice safe reliable move, though my biggest problem they are only decent moves of those types as other moves either do recoil damage, weak or inaccurate.

Plus Game Freak seem be thinking small with the Elemental moves as why haven't they created an elemental slash moves for Pokémon with Claws or more elemental kicks moves?

I have been wanting to use Zebstrika for years but Zebstrika is a physical attacker so the only physical electric move that he can use are Spark which is weak or Wild Charge...which has a recoil damage.

The Pokémon is clearly capable of kicking so why haven't Game Freak created "Thunder Kick"?

I mean it's only just now that we are getting another elemental kick move in the form of Trop Kick.


Originally Posted by Toxi

Subscribed. Birdie is the greatest Pokemon professor.

I won't acknowledge Birdie as a Pokémon Professor until he change his name after a tree.

#NotmyPokémonProfessor.

Nah, I am kidding Birdie, Kukui himself would be proud of this thread.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-07-2017, 01:02 AM)
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The Index Numbering of the moves seem kind of random, but sometimes you get some pattern---like here's a string of blade-type moves (bar Gust).

Guillotine - Normal [Physical]
-/5PP/30%
A vicious, tearing attack with big pincers. The target faints instantly if this attack hits.

It's time to talk about "One-Hit K.O. Moves". These moves, as the name implies, will instantly cause the opposing Pokemon to faint but how they work isn't really ever clearly explained in-game as far as I recall, and their mechanics have actually changed throughout the years.

One thing that has remained consistent is that they technically have a base 30% accuracy, but this wasn't actually displayed as such till Generation VII. But despite having 30% base accuracy, they don't take in account accuracy and evasion modifiers in future Generations, but they ARE effected by Abilities and Moves that specifically cause a move to guranteed hit/miss such as No Guard and Lock On. Originally in Generation I this 30% was constant and unaffected by modifiers, but you couldn't use it against a Pokemon faster than you. Starting with Generation II, instead they would not work on Pokemon at a higher level than you, and if you're a higher level than the opponent the accuracy would be scaled up. So, generally, they were primarily useful for quickly dealing with low-level Pokemon, though most players probably didn't bother with them---though whenever the computer used such a move in Gen I, where they weren't at a disadvantage due to the player likely being higher-leveled, it seems the accuracy jumped to 100%.

In recent years certain combinations of moves/Abilities combined with O.H.K.O moves have proved to be useful strategies in higher-level play, though Guillotine as far as I know doesn't enjoy that same level of play because there aren't really any good combinations available to the few Pokemon who can utilize it.

Anyway, Guillotine comes right after Vice Grip and there's a reason for that---the moves are related, and this is more obvious with its Japanese name, "Hasami Guillotine", or "Pincer Guillotine". While Vice Grip has the user grip the foe in their pincers, Guillotine then has them deliver the finishing blow. Most Pokemon who learn Vice Grip learn this move, like Pinsir and Krabby, though there are some Pokemon who learn Guillotine but not Vice Grip such as Gligar, and some Pokemon who learn Vice Grip but not Guillotine such as Klink. In Pokemon Contests, using Vice Grip and then Guillotine creates a combo move, and it's a shame such a combo hasn't been added to the actual battle system. I imagine using Vice Grip and then Guillotine could perhaps increase the latter's accuracy, and would give Vice Grip some reason for existing (even though this strategy is probably less viable than simply using a powerful attack with better accuracy), so, yeah, Game Freak should get on that!

This is one of the more violent sounding names in the franchise (especially in the localization), and when it pops up in the show it tends to be fairly brutal. When Ash's Gligar used it he'd always go right for the neck of the opponent, and in one XY episode Bisharp used it against Goodra causing the screen to flash blood red and looking as if it chopped its head off---I wish!

Razor Wind - Normal [Special]
80/10PP/100%
In this two-turn attack, blades of wind hit opposing Pokémon on the second turn. Critical hits land more easily.

Razor Wind is a weird move which sounds like it should be a Flying-type, but it's a Normal-type. This might have to do with the fact that there's evidence to suggest at one point in time Flying was "Bird", and thus elemental wind attacks wouldn't necessarily fall in that category, or because the Japanese name is less elemental and specifically called "Kamaitachi", the name of a Japanese yokai resembling a weasel said to attack with razor blades of wind. The localization is a good translation all things considered as Kamaitachi would probably confuse kids, so I don't mind.

I'm not sure what the purpose of Razor Wind is exactly, because it's a charge-move such as Solar Beam but with average attack and only had 75% accuracy in Gen I. Future Generations "improved" it through a high critical hit ratio and 100% accuracy, but by then there were far more useful moves introduced that Razor Wind fell into obscurity. It's surprising they haven't given it a combo like some of the other charge moves, such as perhaps letting it strike in one turn and increase its power when Tailwind is active? Maybe there's some niche here in Double Battles as it hits both opponents, but I've never heard of anyone using it.

The distribution of this move is weird, as is everything about this move really. It wasn't till Generation III that a Pokemon could naturally learn it, and in Generation I it was exclusively a TM and mainly learned by Flying-type Pokemon (so it really should've been a Flying-type attack) and Kabutops, probably due to having scythes like the Kamaitachi. This makes me wonder if at one point in time there was an actual Kamaitachi Pokemon designed to have the move, but was cut---when we finally did get one in Sneasel in Gen II, who most deem to be partially if not wholly inspired by the creature, the move was strangely absent, and still is to this day. Buizel gets it, though, as it's also a weasel and can form air blades by spinning its tail like a certain fox, but they really need to give it to Sneasel alongside buffing it one of these days. Generation III as mentioned before made it a natural move, Scyther one of the main Pokemon to learn it which makes sense with its scythes and all, and quite a few others have gained it over the years. Oddly enough of all the Pokemon who could learn it in Generation I, only Spearow remains capable of having it through breeding.

This move is actually pretty notorious in Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon, and the words "Heliolisk used Razor Wind!" is sure to be stuck in your mind if you played this game. In one of the earliest dungeons you're walking around having fun, and then suddenly Heliolisk launches this attack off-screen and it basically hits everyone multiple times and is ridiculously overpowered. You pretty much lose at that point. Interestingly there's a somewhat similar move exclusive to the DS Mystery Dungeon games called "Vacuum Cut" that's of the ???-variety and unavailable outside of using TMs, much like how Razor Wind originally was. There's three other unique Mystery Dungeon moves, though only this and "Wide Slash" made it to the actual game while the two others, Excavate and Spin Slash, are in the data but not usable through normal means.

Swords Dance - Normal [Status]
20PP
A frenetic dance to uplift the fighting spirit. This sharply raises the user's Attack stat.
If powered up by a Normalium Z into Z-Swords Dance, all of the user's lowered stats are reset.

Our first Status move is Swords Dance, one of the more iconic ones in the series and pretty useful as it sharply boosts the user's Attack by 2 stages---the older descriptions pointed out that you can normally use this three times, a way to tell the player that Pokemon could only have a stat boosted 6 stages in total. Though in Generation I this was a tad more important, as if you somehow raised a stat high enough it would actually wrap back around and end up far lower! Though stat boosting moves are still useful in more serious competitions, nowadays it seems people prefer those that boost multiple stats over a single one. You can still get a lot of use out of Swords Dance in the scenario though, and as a TM in every Generation except II and III (where it's a tutor move) it's pretty prolific.

Swords Dance as a natural move is mainly learned by Pokemon notable for sharp blades or claws, or sword-like appendages---Farfetch'd, Pinsir, and Scyther were the original owners of the move, but now quite a large amount of Pokemon can learn it and not all of them really fit. As of Generation VII, BIDOOF of all Pokemon can learn it naturally. No Pokemon known for dancing learns it naturally though, but some like Ludicolo and Oricorio can pick it up through TM. The amount of Pokemon who can learn it through TM is quite large, and there's even more somewhat contentious examples where the Pokemon has an appendage that's kind of sharp, but not exactly sword-like. I guess technically despite the name it's just a "frenetic dance" and doesn't necessarily involve swords, but still---why not just give it to every TM-compatible Pokemon since basically any of them could pull off such a dance?

Due to the limitations of the sprites, Game Freak couldn't have the sprites really dance, so instead they took the name literally...and had swords appear and dance around. This actually became one of the cooler looking moves, so it was a nice choice, and though with 3D models it'd be easier to make Pokemon dance somewhat they've stuck with the dancing swords and made them even cooler. The show didn't have such limitations, so it actually made the Pokemon dance---or rapidly spin around, as was the case with Scyther. In X&Y though they brought in the swords, and they look pretty cool. They should probably stick with that.

By the way, the Japanese name is "Tsurugi no Mai", basically "Swords Dance" or "Dance of the Sword". I'm not sure if that's a specific type of dance used in the samurai era, or just a generic term, but it seems there was a movie that went by that title in 1909 (but I know nothing more than that), and it happens to be a song from Samurai Champloo by Nujabes.

Cut - Normal [Physical]
50/30PP/95%
The target is cut with a scythe or claw.

In Japan this move is specifically called "Iai Cut", referencing the quick-draw samurai technique---but despite this name it's still basically just cutting down shit.

So, Cut is the first HM---a very contested mechanic that only recently was removed, and it's unknown if permanently. I shouldn't have to explain to you about HMs, but basically if you don't know they're moves you can teach Pokemon over and over (before you could do this with TMs in Gen V) that for the most part aren't too useful in battle, but have additional effects in the overworld. Often, these effects are mandatory to complete the game, or to access alternate paths, and in many games you're basically required to make one or two Pokemon specialize in HMs limiting their potential. Furthermore once a Pokemon has an HM move it cannot be overwritten until you reach the Move Deleter, so it ultimately becomes a burden.

Cut is one of the more egregious examples, the first one you'll often get as HM01 and allows you to cut down small trees blocking your path---in the earlier games this usually blocked the main path (such as one Gym in Gen I blocked by one!), though in some later games it was more used to hide items behind. Cut trees tend to respawn, so necessitating the move is kept with you when backtracking certain routes, and the move is very weak and quickly loses its battle value so, well, you basically end up with a gimped Pokemon because of it. There are some little known effects of Cut, though---in Gen I you can stand on the space where a tree was, save, and reset to be on top of the tree! Also in Gen I-Gen III Cut can be used to cut down tall grass, which many people likely didn't realize since there's no button prompt and you'd have to go into your menu to do it. In Emerald, a Pokemon with the Hyper Cutter Ability will cut down even more grass! Wow! The grass respawns though, so you can't permanently lose out on certain Pokemon by destroying the patches of grass where they only appear.

When it was an HM, a ton of Pokemon learned it since it was necessary to progress, and some Generation I Pokemon who couldn't originally picked it up in later Generations. Yay? Most Pokemon with some sharp body part can learn it as you'd expect, but there are some odd Pokemon missing out and some that don't really strike you as sharp, like Tentacool. As of Gen VIII, it's no longer an HM nor is it a TM, and only a single Pokemon can now have it excluding those transferred from older games---Kartana! It's given a samurai personality in concept art, but I kind of think it'd be cool for flavor if some of the other samurai-style Pokemon like Oshawott and Pawniard also got it. Also due to its inspiration, now that it's a regular ol' move I think they could've at least turned it into an increased-priority move or given it some additional effect? But yeah, that's Cut---once a staple of the series now reduced to basically a gag move.

Ash's Greninja made the move look pretty awesome though in the show, forming these cool blades and such and pulled off some pretty hype attacks with Cut of all things!

Gust - Flying [Special]
40/35PP/100%
A gust of wind is whipped up by wings and launched at the target to inflict damage.

In Generation 1 Gust was a Normal-type move, and once more I believe this may be due to how there's evidence Flying may have been Bird-type at one point, and "stirring up wind" isn't necessarily limited to birds---though Generation II made it a Flying-type move, and thus it became a nice early game staple. Though that being said as many Pokemon who learn it tend to be a bit more Physical-oriented, it kind of sucks following the Physical/Special split. Take the Pidgey line in modern games, this is all it gets naturally in terms of damaging Flying-type moves till like Wing Attack in the later thirties. Oh, did you know it can hit Pokemon in the middle of Fly, Bounce, and Sky Dance doing double damage? I wasn't aware of that!

As you can guess Gust is learned by a majority of Flying-type Pokemon, or those with wings. Those who don't fit this description but can learn it are typically those described as having some control over wind, such as Suicune "The Northern Wind" and Drifloon, who probably uses the wind from its balloon body. The weirdest user who can pick it up is Trapinch through breeding, though I imagine they did that since its evolutions can fly---I guess Trapinch might be able to shut its jaws so hard that it causes wind to shoot forth? Though it's usually associated with bird-based Pokemon, especially the Early Birds, only Pidgey and Pidove's families can learn it, and by my count it seems more non-bird Pokemon learn it then bird Pokemon. In fact, excluding Articuno and Ho-Oh, there wasn't any bird-based Pokemon who could naturally learn it between those two Early Birds. Interesting!

Gust was a staple move of Ash's Pidgeotto in the show, but mainly as a way to remove Koffing's Smokescreen---did it ever actually hurt anyone with the move? Come to think of it, did Pidgeotto ever win a fight? Somewhat "infamously", Ash's Starly knew it in the Japanese version, but the dub actually caught this and changed it to "Whirlwind" to be more accurate. Personally a bird knowing Gust isn't a huge issue to me even if it isn't game accurate, but it's nice someone on the dub was actually paying attention since usually it's the opposite issue.
NipplesAndToes23
Banned
(10-07-2017, 01:02 AM)
Damn, motherfucker!
Nocturnowl
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(10-07-2017, 01:12 AM)
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I can thank the gimmicky scenarios presented by Pokemon Stadium 2's trainer school mode for knowing such things like gust and twister working on pokemon using fly.
Same for the defense curl/rollout combo, I wonder if they added more of these quirks in later games that I don't even know without Earl's guidance.
unknownstranger
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(10-07-2017, 01:16 AM)
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Swords Dance is still pretty popular competitively. It's mainly used on Pokemon with priority (IE Mega Scizor and Crawdaunt) or "double dance" sets (IE Swords Dance and Agility). Lum Berry is a popular item on Swords Dance sets to prevent status effects. There's actually very few Pokemon that learn both Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, and deciding between which to use is dependent on what their base speed is.
NipplesAndToes23
Banned
(10-07-2017, 01:17 AM)

Originally Posted by Nocturnowl

I can thank the gimmicky scenarios presented by Pokemon Stadium 2's trainer school mode for knowing such things like gust and twister working on pokemon using fly.
Same for the defense curl/rollout combo, I wonder if they added more of these quirks in later games that I don't even know without Earl's guidance.

Speaking of Twister, why would anyone ever use that move?
Toxi
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(10-07-2017, 01:25 AM)
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Last edited by Toxi; 10-07-2017 at 01:30 AM.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-07-2017, 01:26 AM)
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what the fuck
Toxi
Member
(10-07-2017, 01:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Technomancer

what the fuck

You weren't there for Twitch Plays Pokemon?
Dark Orchid
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(10-07-2017, 01:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by NipplesAndToes23

Speaking of Twister, why would anyone ever use that move?

It's Dragon-type Ember/Thundershock, so usually it only gets used in the early stages of the game.

As for Swords Dance, I'm not sure what to think of its representation in animations. Like I always pictured it being dancing with swords, not the swords themselves dancing, but Stadium made it look like the latter and I was really confused at why that would raise attack power when I was growing up.
Spinosaurus
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(10-07-2017, 01:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nocturnowl

This'll be a fun thread.

Vicegrip is one of those moves where half the pokemon using it make me think it should be way stronger, if I'm caught in a Pinsir or Kingler vicegrip, I expect DEATH.
But I guess that's what Guillotine is for.

Elemental punches are what keep Goldenroad mall open for business.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one always expecting Vice Grip to be much better than it actually is. Can't count how many times I saw Vice Grip and expecting it to be Guillotine basically lmao.
Last edited by Spinosaurus; 10-07-2017 at 01:37 AM.
papertoonz
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(10-07-2017, 01:33 AM)
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one of the cool things i like about swords dance was how it was adapted Pokken

in Pokken they gave Scizor swords dance and when he uses it summons two swords that float behind him, having a swords dance ready makes his pokemon moves stronger which is a cool way to adapt it

Pokken has a ton of cool ideas when it came to using the actual moves from the games
balladofwindfishes
(10-07-2017, 01:37 AM)
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Swords Dance has to have one of the coolest animations in the series, at least in the old 3D games. Battle Revolution has a fantastic animation for it, where the swords clank into each other.

It's also a neat gimmick of Scizor in Pokken DX. I usually associate this move with the Scyther line for whatever reason, and it seems like the Pokken guys agree.


Farfetch'd should get Cut via level... it's kind of his move, at least in GS.
Last edited by balladofwindfishes; 10-07-2017 at 01:40 AM.
NipplesAndToes23
Banned
(10-07-2017, 01:38 AM)

Originally Posted by Dark Orchid

It's Dragon-type Ember/Thundershock, so usually it only gets used in the early stages of the game.

As for Swords Dance, I'm not sure what to think of its representation in animations. Like I always pictured it being dancing with swords, not the swords themselves dancing, but Stadium made it look like the latter and I was really confused at why that would raise attack power when I was growing up.

In what games motherfucker? I've played quite a bit and you ain't getting a drag that early or running into dragons early. That shit seems even weaker than ember and thundershock.
Zubz
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(10-07-2017, 01:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dark Orchid

It's Dragon-type Ember/Thundershock, so usually it only gets used in the early stages of the game.

True, but IIRC, by the time you have any Pokemon that can learn Twister, it's late enough in the game that it's useless by that point.
Sterok
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(10-07-2017, 01:41 AM)
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Cut truly is one of the mightiest moves.

CelestialWolfZX
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 01:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by NipplesAndToes23

In what games motherfucker? I've played quite a bit and you ain't getting a drag that early or running into dragons early. That shit seems even weaker than ember and thundershock.

I suppose that Games Corner Dratini in Gold and Silver you could use it, but when you have Dragon Rage as an option that early in. I don't know why you would use it...

Speaking of Guillotine, and all the OHKO moves, these are the bane of your existance in Battle Tower, because there's going to be one pokemon (Probably with a Quick Claw) at somepoint that will just defy all the numbers and end your run. Everytime without fail. Always frustrating when you run into one.
Dark Orchid
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(10-07-2017, 01:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by NipplesAndToes23

In what games motherfucker? I've played quite a bit and you ain't getting a drag that early or running into dragons early. That shit seems even weaker than ember and thundershock.

Same power with a "status" chance, but less PP. Only Dratini and Horsea get it early on, but that just seems more of a problem with there being so few Dragon types than anything else. Also yeah, wish they would place those two earlier for once, G/S is the only time you can get Dratini early.

Originally Posted by CelestialWolfZX

Speaking of Guillotine, and all the OHKO moves, these are the bane of your existance in Battle Tower, because there's going to be one pokemon (Probably with a Quick Claw) at somepoint that will just defy all the numbers and end your run. Everytime without fail. Always frustrating when you run into one.

I always just try to remember it's as likely to hit as Focus Blast missing, especially when playing Battle Spot Singles and I'm about three seconds from chucking the 3DS out the window.
Baron von Loathsome
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(10-07-2017, 01:52 AM)
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You can't talk about Cut without bringing in this classic comic.

The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-07-2017, 01:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Toxi

You weren't there for Twitch Plays Pokemon?

no I mean this thread

Birdie is bonkers
Sigismundo
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(10-07-2017, 02:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

Though in Generation I this was a tad more important, as if you somehow raised a stat high enough it would actually wrap back around and end up far lower!

This mostly becomes relevant in Gen 2, with Marowak holding Thick Club. You need a 13 Attack DV or lower at Lv 100 otherwise it'll roll over to 8 attack instead of maxing out at 999.
Flying Fish
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 02:25 AM)
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I like how the later games made the cut bushes much larger. Still doesn't explain why you can't just torch them, but whatever, it's Pokemon.

Anyways, great write-ups so far!
TriggerShy
Member
(10-07-2017, 05:34 AM)
Guillotine



Razor Wind



Swords Dance



Cut



Gust

megarockexe
Member
(10-07-2017, 06:33 AM)
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Wow this thread is going to be big.
I think you accidentally a Gen 8 in there in the latest moves

Interesting to look back at a lot of the old Gen 1 moves and how generally obsolete they've become. I guess once they started paying attention to it, power creep had to happen. But only because moves were so limited before. I am also just finding out about Fire Lash and how it was randomly added in Gen 7 to a Pokemon you can't even get in that game. In a perfect world, there would be fair representation in all elements and attacks. But early on, there's nothing medium strong for Grass or Ghost or Bug or Poison that is commonly learned. So you end up being stuck with very weak moves almost into the Level 40s. Like, have you seen the learnsets for Mr. Mime in Gen 1? 2 attacks, and they're not even good. Voltorb line? They don't even learn any electric attacks!
TeamLeftMatch
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(10-07-2017, 07:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy

Guillotine



Razor Wind



Swords Dance



Cut



Gust

As a kid, I was always confused at what the hell swords dance even was. I was thinking about where they got those swords and why didn't they use them to attack or something.

Cut is that signature move of the HM slave where the move could've have been used for something better, but I'm glad sun and moon did away with that.

For that cut gif, is that ash's frogadier, becuase if so this proves how weak of a trainer he is.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
(10-07-2017, 07:46 AM)
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Man I'm so not used with the "blurry background when Pokemon makes anime move" nowadays.

Originally Posted by TriggerShy

Whatever, when there are like, 12 different "punch" moves and a bunch of Pokémon that use their fists, it's hard to tell with the anime.

Comet Punch for realsies

to be fair it was only in the latter part of the anime's life span where the move animation became "standardized", and even then you get shit like Aerial Ace = taijutsu motherfuckers
Dantrist
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(10-07-2017, 08:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy

Gust

I also like it in Snap:

TriggerShy
Member
(10-07-2017, 09:06 AM)

Originally Posted by TeamLeftMatch

For that cut gif, is that ash's frogadier, becuase if so this proves how weak of a trainer he is.

To be fair, Cut's Japanese name has a cooler background that references the act of quickly drawing a sword and striking in a single motion, which fits with the Froakie line's ninja theme.
TeamLeftMatch
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(10-07-2017, 09:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy

To be fair, Cut's Japanese name has a cooler background that references the act of quickly drawing a sword and striking in a single motion, which fits with the Froakie line's ninja theme.

The Japanese name is defiantly cooler than just cut, but the move itself is pretty weak compared to slash. I would never teach either move to my greninja, when he has so much better options. At the very least the anime makes some moves better but still.

On the topic of cut, Diglett and Dugtrio, can both learn cut and slash. This probably goes with the idea that Diglett is a mole with claws we never see (That and in mystery dungeon games there's a quest where you rescue a Diglett and he claims that his feet were getting tired, promoting your character to question his feet?).
WPS
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(10-07-2017, 01:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by TeamLeftMatch

For that cut gif, is that ash's frogadier, becuase if so this proves how weak of a trainer he is.

They probably wanted to portray the water swords, but the only other two slashing moves that Greninja gets are Aerial Ace, which the show already portrayed as a striking move, and Night Slash, which has a japanese name with too dark a connotations to allow a heroic character to use.

They swapped Cut out for Night Slash for the in game event, at least. Ironically, Cut is therefore impossible to get on Ash Greninja.

Edit: It occurs to me, 90% of attack weirdness can be summarised as "Oh, it makes sense with the japanese name but there's no accurate english translation under two sentences so they changed it."
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
(10-07-2017, 01:17 PM)
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Iaigiri is single strike or something to that effect - if you play Guilty Gear or watch Rurouni Kenshin, it's essentially the idea of "single stroke" slicing.

Originally Posted by TeamLeftMatch

For that cut gif, is that ash's frogadier, becuase if so this proves how weak of a trainer he is.

is this some dumb post or... the anime can literally turn shitty moves in games into something bigger, since Froakie line is a ninja this is the closest he can have thematically with using ninjato or kunai

at this point they might as well be called water kunais or something, since he literally uses them more like that
Last edited by Boss Doggie; 10-07-2017 at 01:20 PM.
TeamLeftMatch
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(10-07-2017, 02:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Boss Doggie

is this some dumb post or... the anime can literally turn shitty moves in games into something bigger, since Froakie line is a ninja this is the closest he can have thematically with using ninjato or kunai

at this point they might as well be called water kunais or something, since he literally uses them more like that

Don't worry, I'm more joking than anything else. Just wanted to get that obligated "Ash sucks" posts out. It looks nice in the anime though and makes it seem so much more useful than the games will ever do.
Bubble
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 02:46 PM)
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Heatmor, of all Pokemon, has its own signature move? Like what? Makes it even more bizarre considering Fire Lash is physical move and Heatmor has higher Sp. Atk stat then Atk. Also, Heatmor just sucks in general, so why bother giving it a signature move in the first place?

Must say I absolutely love the Elemental Punches. Someone has already mentioned it, but I love the idea of a fist being covered in flames or ice.
Flying Fish
Junior Member
(10-07-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Thunder punch had an amusing animation in Gen 3.The attacker punches the target, then a bolt of lightning drops out of the sky on them.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
(10-07-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by TeamLeftMatch

Don't worry, I'm more joking than anything else. Just wanted to get that obligated "Ash sucks" posts out. It looks nice in the anime though and makes it seem so much more useful than the games will ever do.

That's XY Ash, an anomaly that exists in its own bubble.
Ogodei
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(10-07-2017, 07:58 PM)
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Awesome thread. This reminds me of a series, i think originally from DeviantArt, called Tracy the Tracing Gardevoir, which is an illustration of every single Ability (drawn in 2014, so runs up through Gen VI)

https://imgur.com/gallery/YMXh4

Here's one for an example

Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-08-2017, 12:13 AM)
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Wing Attack - Flying [Physical]
60/35PP/100%
The target is struck with large, imposing wings spread wide to inflict damage.

Before Gust was changed to a Flying-type attack in Generation II, Wing Attack was the first move for me at least that I associated with Flying-type Pokemon and, boy, looking back really surprised me---I forgot that Wing Attack only had 35 Power in Generation I. It was tied with Peck, but its distribution was absolutely bizarre. Every Pokemon who can learn Peck, such as Spearow, pick it up at Level 1. Those who learn Wing Attack, such as Pidgey, pick it up around Level 30 excluding Aerodactyl, who has it as their Level 1 move, and Scyther, who gets it at Level 50 exclusively in Yellow. Generation II thankfully gave it a good boost to a respectable 60 Power making it a nice mid-game move, but overtime as power creep has occurred Game Freak have given Wing Attack to newer Pokemon at lower levels, and went back and changed most of the older Pokemon to learn it earlier as well.

Except for Pidgey. Game Freak HATES Pidgey. Though you have Pokemon like Charizard and Dragonite who still learn it late, that's only because they're the first members of their line to have wings and learn it upon evolving. Scyther went from Level 50 in Gen I to Level 20 in Gen VII. Zubat went from Level 28 in Gen I to Level 13 in Gen VII. As for Pidgey? It learned Wing Attack at 28 in Gen I if you didn't evolve it. In Gen VII? Level 33. And that's assuming you keep it as Pidgey for that long, if you evolve it to Pidgeot it's Level 38. Playing a Nuzlocke recently in Pokemon Y and using Pidgey this really hit me, as all you basically have is Gust for the longest time and nothing else. This is like a sick joke at this point, Game Freak refusing to make this line viable in-game despite the power creep. The show lied by placing Pidgeotto as the "face" and Fearow and Dodrio as the "heels", it sucks. Anyway this has become less about Wing Attack and more about Pidgey, but, hey it's not me who has kept Pidgey's Wing Attack at such a high level.

Anyway, besides the weirdness with Pidgey (and Yanma, who gets it at 43 currently and loses out if you evolve it!) there's not much else to say about Wing Attack. There's no oddity in terms of who learns it, all the Pokemon who do have visible wings. Now we'll get to another wing-based attack later on where this isn't true. Do you know what it is? And no, I'm not talking about the Aerial Ace issue.

Whirlwind - Normal [Status]
20PP
The target is blown away, and a different Pokémon is dragged out. In the wild, this ends a battle against a single Pokémon.
If powered up by a Normalium Z into Z-Whirlwind, the user's Special Defense stat raises one stage.

The Japanese name of this move is a bit blander, basically "Blow Away", but I think Whirlwind is a nice localization that keeps the general idea behind the move even if it does sound a bit more powerful---like you have a Pokemon with Gust, and then they learn Whirlwind, and that kind of sounds like it'd be a more powerful Gust but, nope, it doesn't do any damage. Whirlwind perhaps could've been turned into a Flying-type move, but I guess since it was a general support move Game Freak realized it didn't really matter what Type it was and left it as is.

So, on the surface, Whirlwind is rather easy to understand. When you use it against a Wild Pokemon, the battle immediately ends. Most folks probably go with a fast Pokemon as their lead-in anyway who can escape battles simply through spamming Run, so its usefulness in that regard is debatable. Maybe it can save your ass in say a Nuzlocke run where failing to run away from a fight can cost you, but for most casual players Whirlwind is a gimmick and nothing more. Against Pokemon Trainers it allows you to forcibly switch their Pokemon, though it couldn't do this in Generation I, which leads to a lot of interesting strategies known as "phazing" in which you force the opponent to switch Pokemon. This is useful for canceling out the opponent's stat boosts, as well as triggering Entry Hazards and thus Whirlwind is quite useful in the competitive scene to this day. Most people probably don't need to rely on this level of strategy in single player, but it's pretty easy to mess with the CPU by forcing them to constantly switch out their Pokemon.

Behind the scenes, there's been a lot of changes to how Whirlwind works over the years. It now has perfect accuracy as long as the opponent isn't in an invulnerable state, though in Gen II it could actually knock away Pokemon who had used Fly, but previously Whirlwind had an actual accuracy percentage, but had a chance of still failing even if it technically hit the foe. This chance of failure was based on if you were of a lower level than the opponent, and in some cases this was calculated differently depending on whether or not it was a Wild Pokemon or a Trainer Pokemon. Game Freak have since greatly simplified Whirlwind and made it a reliable move, but honestly reading through its page on Bulbapedia made me feel stupid. Most of the complexity of this move though only came into play when using it during the main game, where levels aren't even, and in the competitive scene the move has always been more straight-forward so much of the little tidbits and such don't really matter in the long run.

Involving the use of summoning wind, like Gust Whirlwind is learned by a lot of Flying-type Pokemon and those with wings, or some sort of appendage that works in a similar manner like Shiftry's fans. There's a few oddities though like Snorlax and Hariyama, though I imagine the latter may perhaps be a reference to how sumo wrestlers push opponents out of bounds, or perhaps the Japanese name is also the name of a sumo technique, I'm not sure. In Generation I it was a TM that most winged Pokemon could learn, but it hasn't returned as one since, nor as a Move Tutor, so it's a fairly rare move despite the fact that virtually any Pokemon could make good use of it due to its phazing capabilities. Whirlwind is pretty much considered the best phazing move I believe since it works on virtually everyone (Ghost-types included!), and that may be why Game Freak has kept its distribution limited.

So, yeah, in the Koga episode back in Kanto Bulbasaur apparently used "Whirlwind" despite not knowing it in the games---but from what I've read, it was a dub issue where in the Japanese version the verb "to blow away" was ordered and not the specific move. But it was clear that Bulbasaur was improvising here anyway so it's another example where I think a pass can be given. Years later, the dub (TPCI though instead of 4Kids) would do this once more, but this time turning an instance of Gust used by Starly into Whirlwind to be more game accurate.

Fly - Flying [Physical]
90/15PP/95%
The user soars and then strikes its target on the next turn.

The localization gave this move a rather simplistic verb name, but in Japan it's a bit more poetic as "Sora wo Tobu", basically "leap/soar into the air!". Thus a Pokemon flying isn't necessarily using this move, and I believe in the show going by Bulbapedia we never actually saw this move in action till Golurk in Generation V! That being said, Ash's Charizard apparently did know it since one episode he unsuccessfully ordered him to use it (though I'm not sure what he said in the original version) and the Japanese opening of Orange Islands has the move as part of the lyrics right as Charizard flies across the screen. Maybe the anime writers just figured it wasn't necessary in the show to actually tell a Pokemon capable of flight to use the move, Golurk the exception since its manner of flight is so much different than the other users, but the Japanese name being a bit more specific may explain why not every Pokemon capable of flight can necessarily learn it.

Fly was probably the most useful Flying-type move in Generation I for the majority of Flying-type Pokemon, delivering a respectable 70-power attack without any drawbacks plus a turn of invulnerability. Now against a human opponent it's pretty easy to take advantage of the invulnerable phase to set up for the actual attack, but against the CPU it's easy to manipulate and if you had a Charizard in Pokemon Yellow, you probably gave it this move. As HM02 up until Sun and Moon, Fly was actually pretty decent and not a total waste of space, and though you didn't need to use it to progress through the game most folks made sure to have a Pokemon who could use it always on hand as it provided the only way to quick travel around the map without having to constantly go back-and-forth to the PC. Later games buffed it to 90BP, and it remained a staple of the series. I for one would always make sure to carry a Flying-type Pokemon who could use it in every adventure bar ORAS and S&M where other options became available, and it's no surprised Game Freak kept it as a TM in Gen VII due to its legacy.

As an HM, Fly can be learned by a large majority of Flying-type Pokemon, and typically only Flying-type Pokemon, but as the years went on they gave it to a few Pokemon who could clearly fly, even if they weren't actually Flying-types. Except for Bug-type Pokemon. It's unknown why, but it wasn't till Generation V with Volcarona and Genesect (who can turn into a flying car-thing) that a Bug-type could have Fly, though Vibrava and Flygon who are in the Bug Egg Group could. Is this because Bug-type Pokemon are "too small"? Probably not, as there's plenty of tiny Bird-type Pokemon who can learn it. My best guess may be due to the fact that I believe bugs in real life can't fly as high as birds can, thus can't necessarily fly over to a nearby city, or because it's harder for someone to ride on a bug due to how their wings tend to beat very fast? Like Yanmega could probably carry a human, but considering its wings are said to be capable of destroying internal organs it'd be highly dangerous. That's just a theory though. From a gameplay standpoint, it's a shame more Bug-type Pokemon who can fly can't learn Fly because a lot of them I ended up skipping over in favor of a Flying-type Pokemon who could.

Three Pokemon can naturally learn Fly, though now that it isn't an HM I imagine we might see more who can obtain it. Despite being associated with mainly bird-based Pokemon, the three who learn it naturally are Dragon-types. First there's Salamence, who considering evolves from a Pokemon whose greatest wish is to fly this is a nice lore tie-in. Salamence actually learns Fly right as it evolves at Level 50, though in Sun and Moon with the new evolutionary move mechanic now Salamence will obtain it as soon as it evolves even if it's a later level. Second, Rayquaza, who is known as the guardian of the sky and everything so, yeah, that works. The third, well, it's Drampa of all things. He doesn't strike me as a Pokemon who can really fly, though maybe he uses his cloud-like hands to float or something like that? Dude's not even a Flying-type! I think Golurk is the one Pokemon who needs to learn it naturally, and have a unique animation when using it, since it has the coolest method of flight alongside Celesteela who also seems to fly in a similar manner.

Bind - Normal [Physical]
15/20PP/85%
Things such as long bodies or tentacles are used to bind and squeeze the target for four to five turns.

Bind is the first partial-trapping move as they're called, or "binding moves". In Generation I these attacks were wicked as they hit you first, and then would continuously hit you over and over---when these moves were in effect, your Pokemon could not attack back. You could switch out, though quite a few people probably didn't realize this as you might've thought that was prevented too, but that would leave you vulnerable to getting stuck in the move with the new Pokemon if you weren't fast enough. But this was a double-edge sword, however, as these moves were also easy to abuse against the CPU who wouldn't attempt to switch out and would pretty much be putty in your hands. Of the Gen I moves Bind isn't necessarily the worst as its power wasn't that high and wasn't accurate, and rather weak Pokemon knew it, but could still be annoying. The worst part was probably waiting for the text to scroll, and I imagine this is probably the worst thing that could happen to an RBY speedrunner.

Since Generation II these moves were thankfully changed and became far less annoying---rather than hitting you with the move's attack at the end of every turn, it only hit you once, and instead you lost a small fraction of your health over the duration of the additional turns. This was originally a meager 1/16th, thus this move became kind of worthless in terms of power, though since Generation VI it now does 1/8th, and can be boosted higher with Binding Band Hold Item. But I still don't think anyone uses such a move for its power. The more important effect added was that a Pokemon binded could no longer switch out and escape, and that can be deadly if the trapped Pokemon is at a disadvantage. But now they can actually fight back, so overall it was far less tedious than Generation I's effect. The trap only lasts as long as Bind does, which is based on percentages unless a Grip Claw is held, and thus in the competitive scene more reliable trapping moves and Abilities are favored that don't have a turn limit, though those tend to be banned in some circles.

The original users of Bind were Onix, Tangela, and Pinsir, who weren't necessarily high-tier Pokemon. It's since been learned by a few other Pokemon, and typically it seems it's either binding with some sort of vine-like appendage (Tangela's vines, Heatmor's...tongue?) or binding with pure strength, like between Pinsir's pincers or Bewear hugging the opponent to death. Though weaker than Wrap, which is seen as the superior Bind, it almost feels like Bind should be the stronger one based on big Pokemon like Onix, Klinklang, and Zygarde knowing it. Bind was made a Move Tutor in Generation V and VI, but by then there were far better options. Maybe people make use of this in lower tiers, but honestly I always skipped over these moves when a Pokemon learned it in-game.

Slam - Normal [Physical]
80/20PP/75%
The target is slammed with a long tail, vines, or the like to inflict damage.

In Generation I, Slam was a fairly powerful move. It wasn't the most powerful Normal-type move out there, but for the time its power was respectable and its low accuracy wasn't as big of a deal back then because, well, people expected moves to constantly miss. For the handful of Pokemon who learned Slam, it was the best option available in some cases or the "cheapest one", other more powerful Normal-type attacks being TMs and thus valuable and not to be used lightly. That being said, this is a move that really should've have been buffed as time went on since while the power is still good enough, the low accuracy is just ridiculous now considering there are countless moves that do just as much damage with better accuracy or an additional effect, and no longer do Pokemon have to be conservative with their moves---Slam is no longer the best option available, but simply an option, and one most players probably won't choose if they have a choice.

When it debuted in Generation 1, the only Normal-type who learned it was Lickitung. Lickitung isn't the strongest Pokemon around, but it was a solid STAB. Unlike the other learners of Slam bar Dragonite though, Lickitung could learn Strength, which as an HM had infinite uses, and thus that was the preferable STAB attack. Slam's "shining moment" was probably when Pikachu gained it at Level 20 in Pokemon Yellow, quite low for such a powerful attack and likely a way to make you want to keep Pikachu in your party by giving it such a good attack. I'm not sure if Pikachu using Slam really was a huge boon for the player though since its Attack is paltry, and you can't even get it on Raichu unless you take the time to work around Yellow's anti-Thunder Stone mechanic. Slam is continued to be distributed to Pokemon to this day, still at rather high levels, and you can even breed it onto Pokemon for whatever reason. It's really such an antiquated move at this point, right? My favorite Slam distribution story is probably when after three Generations, Game Freak decided to give it Slam in Generation IV as a natural move instead of literally any other far better Normal-type attack. Like, Slash? I guess to be fair for little kids 80BP is still "cool", but most players will know that better accuracy and additional effects are what you should usually go with.
7Th
Harunobu Madarame
is my hero
(10-08-2017, 12:14 AM)
Nobody that unironically believes evasion moves should be banned is worth listening to.
unknownstranger
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(10-08-2017, 12:34 AM)
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Fly gained some competitive viability in gen 7 thanks to Z moves. Before gen 7, Fly and all other charge moves were terrible competitively, because they let your opponent switch into something that could take the hit. You could get around this with a Power Herb, but it only allowed you to do it once and Fly's base power wasn't worth using it over holding something else. In gen 7, Flyinium Z turns Fly into a base 175 power move without a charge time. This gives Pokemon such as Dragonite and Landorus-Therian a powerful Flying nuke that they sorely lacked.
Nocturnowl
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(10-08-2017, 12:52 AM)
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Fly has always been a gripe for me in older games because it felt pretty essential for every team just for the ease of travel, but pokemon options aren't as wide as other common need HMs like Surf.
Nothing would irk me more than finding out the flying type I chose couldn't actually fly, Scyther whhhhy?! you can totally fly in pokemon Snap!



I still laugh that somehow Dodrio can make it work.
megarockexe
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(10-08-2017, 12:55 AM)
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Yeah, for having so many Bug/Flying type combos, they never get to learn Fly.
Slam is an interesting attack, right there with Mega Punch/Kick. Really just an antiquated move now that's not worth using over better options.
Baron von Loathsome
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(10-08-2017, 01:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nocturnowl

Fly has always been a gripe for me in older games because it felt pretty essential for every team just for the ease of travel, but pokemon options aren't as wide as other common need HMs like Surf.
Nothing would irk me more than finding out the flying type I chose couldn't actually fly, Scyther whhhhy?! you can totally fly in pokemon Snap!

I still laugh that somehow Dodrio can make it work.

CelestialWolfZX
Junior Member
(10-08-2017, 01:10 AM)
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The evolution of weird flying






(There's no Gen 7 version, we need an updated version with Drampa.)
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-08-2017, 01:13 AM)
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Golurk really needs to be the Flying Ride Pokemon should we get a BW Remake.

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