NeoGAF

Originally Posted by Solaire of Astora

And I'm sure that a group of people will create a PC mod that removes your character's spoken dialogue and lists all conversation options in full text. I mean, it's the first thing I thought of when I saw the first complaint about the dialogue wheel.

Patience. This series has an active modding community. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's already thought of this.

"Mods will fix/improve/add thing X!" shouldn't be used as excuse for bad development choices by dev [e.g. lackluster texture work] or to downplay opinions that aren't praising the game. I think it's reasonable complaint by people when it comes to dialogue wheel as it can be so inaccurate. Choosing based on assumption what choice X will prompt PC to say, but it's something totally different can break immersion big time for some.

Sure some modder may disable VO and/or write out all 15k lines of dialogue into menus so you can do 100% accurate dialogue choices, but how realistic expectation that is and how it makes person's opinion about current dialogue wheel matter less?

Edit:

Originally Posted by Wolvesinthebathroom

The entire trailer the protagonist is talking to dog meat or his robot butler, I doubt they need skill checks of any kind.

Maybe my example picture was bad as I just googled up some and picked first with decent resolution. My intention wasn't to point out skill check part, but that what your PC is going to say is typed out word to word. Not just 1-2 word vague summary.

It's that 1-2 word vague summary that some people have issue with.

Originally Posted by -tetsuo-

Sawyer directed New Vegas

I'm aware. I would have liked less influence from Sawyer; with Avellone's absence that isn't likely to happen.

Do we know who the voice actors are yet (please say Troy Baker, please say Troy Baker, etc.)?

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

How about super intelligent flying robot AI?



Player picks "You are still here".

Response: "Cogsworth? You.. you're still here. So other people could be alive too".

Let's not kid ourselves, we have played a game with this sort of dialog system hundreds of times before by this game comes out, we know what to expect and how it works out.

It's obviously at the start of the game as well. I am sure there will be better dialogue options and harder choices once you are knee-deep into the game.

Originally Posted by Muntu

Yeah, I'm optimistic something like this will happen in the first month or two. The thing is, I'm not sure if I can wait that long lol



They're afraid other game content will be behind a home base building wall, which I think is a fair complaint. We'll see.

True but other things can be locked behind walls in their games if you don't do them like mages guild or dark brotherhood in the es games etc.

If it isn't required for the main quest I don't think it's a huge deal personally.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

Is the topmost a skill based option or optional?

Ah, the joys of mandated voice acting for the main protagonist.

I've been fairly warm towards Fallout 4, but Bethesda can go fuck itself in a corner if that's a preview of what real dialogues will look like.

Originally Posted by Lothars

I was mainly talking about the followers but yes I stand by it. New Vegas does have better writing for some of the quests and they did a good job for the story but the world is terrible compared to fallout 3.

I prefer fallout 3 over NV mainly because of the world. Heck I think the worst thing about these threads are the obsidian fanboys shitting on fallout 3 when praising New Vegas.

I would like to see a Bethesda and obsidian joint fallout game.

You're not the only one, don't worry. Going by this thread, you'd think this game was going to flop when in reality it will end up as one of the most successful games of the year.

Outside of this highly vocal bubble, Bethesda games are beloved and hugely popular.

Originally Posted by Gurish

OK understood the other reasons stated but why can't you role-play with such dialog system, because it's not elaborated enough like others have stated?

Because the generic middle aged male/female voiced lines wont necessarily fit the type of character you decided to play as, and whatever type of character you'll choose to replay the game as, will have the same voice.

Want to play as a mad scientist in your next playthrough, a burly old brawler that loves to talk shit when bashing skulls ? you'll get generic 'fit all situations' lines spoken by your character, if you're lucky you'll maybe get a good / bad option, but still generic ones.

At least with written dialogue you can let your imagination fill the void or adapt things, take a look at a Fallout Let's play by Gopher for instance and see how he reacts in addition of the written text to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

It makes you become more a spectator than an actor in the actual game in some way.

It also becomes a problem when you take mods into account, it's already weird enough to have an NPC from a quest mod not talk (although they found ways to re-use dialog from the base game in some cases for Skyrim), but in FO4 it'll be more than likely that your character will end up silent too.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

Is the topmost a skill based option or optional?

There's no way "You Okay?" Is a skill based option. Probably optional.

Originally Posted by Tigress

I'm glad I can enjoy all the Fallout :P.

That being said I definitely agree Obsidian did it better and Fallout 2 was excellent from a roleplaying game/writing aspect. 2 is better than the new school but I like the real time action introduced by Bethesda. So New Vegas is my favorite fallout cause it's a good compromise between the better writing and roleplaying ability of the old school Fallouts but the gameplay I like better (though I also enjoy turn based). It's my perfect game - so far though I admit even with Bethesda's weaknesses from what I see 4 might actually surpass it. And yes, I do see where there might be problems in 4, my biggest concern being dialogue choice. Appreciate each game for what it is, ya know? Bethesda games have a lot of flaws. But they have a lot of stuff they do so well that they are really fun regardless of those flaws.

At this point, my ideal would be let Bethesda make the big games that introduce big new ideas (like the crafting buildings in the Fallout world). And then let Obsidian have their hand at fixing the stuff that Bethesda doesn't do write. You get really fun games, and Obsidian will make what was really good into the perfect game (imho). Also, Obsidian would put Fallout on the West Coast (I prefer the west myself) so that's also another reason I want them to do another (But it's a small reason).

Considering how things went down for New Vegas, I doubt we'll see Obsidian working on the series again sadly.

Originally Posted by Enduin

but I guess they forgot this was a Bethesda game, so there isn't really any danger of that.

Meaning, you can't expect anything good to come out of 16000 characters story?

Can someone link me to the video where this happens:



Doesnt seem to be on the OP.

Originally Posted by Solaire of Astora

And I'm sure that a group of people will create a PC mod that removes your character's spoken dialogue and lists all conversation options in full text. I mean, it's the first thing I thought of when I saw the first complaint about the dialogue wheel.

Patience. This series has an active modding community. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's already thought of this.

That only works if you have a PC to play it with. Us lowly console peasants are just going to have to appreciate the game as it is. I will say mods for Bethesda games are the one reason I'm jealous of you PC gamers (I don't even care so much about mods for other games, just the Bethesda ones).

Originally Posted by zephervack

Can someone link me to the video where this happens:



Doesnt seem to be on the OP.

It's the 4th vid in the OP. 1:10 into it.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

How about super intelligent flying robot AI?



Player picks "You are still here".

Response: "Cogsworth? You.. you're still here. So other people could be alive too".

Let's not kid ourselves, we have played a game with this sort of dialog system hundreds of times before by this game comes out, we know what to expect and how it works out.

You're absolutely right. This style of dialogue options has been around for some time and it always works out the same way. We might get lucky and have info pop up that gives up an option to pick one based of skill, but the depth in dialogue options and choice and even inflection are going to be skewed now. I'm definitely not a fan, but I suppose I can live with it.

Originally Posted by Wolvesinthebathroom

The entire trailer the protagonist is talking to dog meat or his robot butler, I doubt they need skill checks of any kind.

But this isn't what we're talking about either! Jesus christ lmao

Originally Posted by ZombieSupaStar

True but other things can be locked behind walls in their games if you don't do them like mages guild or dark brotherhood in the es games etc.

If it isn't required for the main quest I don't think it's a huge deal personally.

Yeah but the thing is, base building is like a mini-game. A mini-game a bunch of people really don't like, if we're going by this thread. It's fine to not want an RPG game to lock content behind a mini-game like that.

Mages Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests are, well, actual quests, and if you have a problem with locking content behind quests I have to ask, why are you even playing an RPG in the first place?

It's not the same thing at all. FWIW, I think the base building looked neat.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

Is the topmost a skill based option or optional?

To me that seems to be optional choice where 3 others are different ending choices for that particular dialogue.

Originally Posted by ZombieSupaStar

Why are people complaining about the home base option? Player homes / base building were 2 of the more popular mods for 3 and new vegas.

Realtime settler:
http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/7070

And wasteland defense: http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/38049/?


It looks like they took both mods and made them official and combined.

I'm perfectly fine with building my own safe house but I don't want to micro-manage it's defense from random raider attacks so I won't do it. It's really that simple for me.

Originally Posted by Steel

Considering how things went down for New Vegas, I doubt we'll see Obsidian working on the series again sadly.

Well, Obsidian has outright said they'd be willing and would love to do it again. They even said they had an idea of what they were going to do (had to do with California and ghouls being a main focus). So it really only needs one company to say yes. I think what we can hope is that 4 is such a success Bethesda Softworks decides to do another money grab and wants some one to quickly put out another Fallout game without slowing Bethesda to work on Elder Scrolls and gives it to Obsidian (unfortunately it probably also means giving them a short time limit but they have shown they can still do well with that). I mean I'm pretty sure that's what happened the first time anyways.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

Is the topmost a skill based option or optional?

wow look at all those low int dialogue options

Originally Posted by Steel

There's no way "You Okay?" Is a skill based option. Probably optional.

Haven't played Fallout in way too long. Don't you think it couldn't be an option based on your skill or a perk related to robotics, electronics or say, your ability to fix stuff? It seems pretty reasonable to me.

I think my only issue is the HUD. Just looks.......weird. Like the ammo looks like something a YouTube guy would put over a first person filmed movie pretending to be a game.

Shouldn't the dog be mutated some how? Gills, fins, antlers, horns... breaths fire?

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

Is the topmost a skill based option or optional?

What really grinds my gears is that there is no need to give such blind options and give a max 3 word rescription of what you're going to say, even if Fallout 4 is going to go with the dialog wheel design.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution dealt with the ambiguity issue before Skyrim was even released

tbh... the only thing I didn't liked about the new trailers is the Dialogue Wheel, I loathe it a bit in Mass Effect because the description is so short and your characters sometimes ended up saying something contrary to what you expected or with a different tone.

Beyond that the game looks thighT tho: The combat seems much more improved and VATS! Also I'm loving that the animations seems more smooth this time and even if I don't care enough about base building I admit that It could be a fun diversion from time to time.

Exciting times ahead =3

Originally Posted by Jerad2142

Shouldn't the dog be mutated some how? Gills, fins, antlers, horns... breaths fire?

Uh, no. Fallout has consistently had dogs that were not mutated.

Originally Posted by Croatoan

You do, you just choose to willfully ignorant of it. Which is your right to do.

Hahaha, that's quite an ironic post.

Originally Posted by Nordicus

What really grinds my gears is that there is no need to give such blind options and give a max 3 word rescription of what you're going to say, even if Fallout 4 is going to go with the dialog wheel design.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution dealt with the ambiguity issue before Skyrim was even released

Never played HR, but that seems like a better setup if they wanted to go with the same style of dialogue option.

I think I'll probably end up getting over not having a big box with full dialogue options.

Originally Posted by Lothars

I was mainly talking about the followers but yes I stand by it. New Vegas does have better writing for some of the quests and they did a good job for the story but the world is terrible compared to fallout 3.

I prefer fallout 3 over NV mainly because of the world. Heck I think the worst thing about these threads are the obsidian fanboys shitting on fallout 3 when praising New Vegas.

I would like to see a Bethesda and obsidian joint fallout game.

You mean that the companions in both games are similar?

Originally Posted by Nordicus

What really grinds my gears is that there is no need to give such blind options and give a max 3 word rescription of what you're going to say, even if Fallout 4 is going to go with the dialog wheel design.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution dealt with the ambiguity issue before Skyrim was even released

LA Noire did it few months earlier

Semi confident we will have the option to play in "classic mode"

Originally Posted by Brinbe

Seriously, I wonder if there'll be any VA accounted for a low intelligence playthrough. Those have a staple of the series since the beginning. Having my 10 str 1 int dude/gal speaking with normal ass dialogue is gonna feel very wrong

I'm very positively surprised if they have went that extra mile and recorded VA for low Int playthrough, but somehow I doubt it's going to happen.

Originally Posted by triplestation

Semi confident we will have the option to play in "classic mode"

That's definitely not going to happen.

I'd like to know which console version to preorder for -- it's kind of a coin flip, because the odds are one of the two will be completely broken forever.

Originally Posted by Octavianus

Was that a thing in Fallout 3? I don't remember.

Low intelligence pretty much summed up the player dialogue in 3. New Vegas had some, but still not to the extent of the original games.

Originally Posted by Steel

That won't actually change skill checks, and they already showed scenes where the PC talks outside of conversations.

And you know skill checks aren't in, because? Source please. Pretty sure I've had skill checks pop up in the witcher, and that has a similar conversation system.

Originally Posted by Tovarisc

"Mods will fix/improve/add thing X!" shouldn't be used as excuse for bad development choices by dev [e.g. lackluster texture work] or to downplay opinions that aren't praising the game. I think it's reasonable complaint by people when it comes to dialogue wheel as it can be so inaccurate. Choosing based on assumption what choice X will prompt PC to say, but it's something totally different can break immersion big time for some.

I'm not trying to excuse anything. While I can't say I'm thrilled with the voiced protagonist, they're obviously going for more *shudders* "cinematic" storytelling. And far be it from me to try to change a developer's artistic vision. If you don't like it, you can either put up with it, vote with your wallet, or wait for a mod to fix it. Those are your options.

I swear, sometimes people forget that the game developers aren't tailor making the game to your tastes. You have a right to dislike it, but to call it "bad development choices" at this stage because it doesn't cater to your every desire is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Tovarisc

Sure some modder may disable VO and/or write out all 15k lines of dialogue into menus so you can do 100% accurate dialogue choices, but how realistic expectation that is and how it makes person's opinion about current dialogue wheel matter less?

Write out 15k lines of dialogues? No, no. That's what the subtitle files are for.

Originally Posted by Tovarisc

Maybe my example picture was bad as I just googled up some and picked first with decent resolution. My intention wasn't to point out skill check part, but that what your PC is going to say is typed out word to word. Not just 1-2 word vague summary.

It's that 1-2 word vague summary that some people have issue with.

I don't necessarily like it either, but not enough to put me off the game. Again... You have three options.

Originally Posted by Tigress

That only works if you have a PC to play it with. Us lowly console peasants are just going to have to appreciate the game as it is. I will say mods for Bethesda games are the one reason I'm jealous of you PC gamers (I don't even care so much about mods for other games, just the Bethesda ones).

I don't have a gaming capable PC at the moment either. I was just hoping to stem the flow of whining.

Originally Posted by daveo42

You're absolutely right. This style of dialogue options has been around for some time and it always works out the same way. We might get lucky and have info pop up that gives up an option to pick one based of skill, but the depth in dialogue options and choice and even inflection are going to be skewed now. I'm definitely not a fan, but I suppose I can live with it.

Thanks to Bioware and Bethesda to have dumbed down the dialog system in western rpgs.

Originally Posted by Dick Justice

Low intelligence pretty much summed up the player dialogue in 3. New Vegas had some, but still not to the extent of the original games.

You know what I hated in new Vegas? That if u didn't make a speech check it showed it right in the dialogue before you chose it. It should have just listed it used a check and left it ambiguous. Oh and penalize you for a reload like the hacking game did.

Originally Posted by ZombieSupaStar

Why are people complaining about the home base option? Player homes / base building were 2 of the more popular mods for 3 and new vegas.

Realtime settler:
http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/7070

And wasteland defense: http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/38049/?


It looks like they took both mods and made them official and combined.

Exactly. RTS is the only reason I ever wanted to buy the PC version. I hope this comes close to that.

Originally Posted by McBryBry

I think my only issue is the HUD. Just looks.......weird. Like the ammo looks like something a YouTube guy would put over a first person filmed movie pretending to be a game.

It's most likely a placeholder.

Originally Posted by Dick Justice

Wasn't Sawyer the lead on New Vegas? I seem to recall that Avellone had a larger role with making the DLC than the main game.

Avellone wrote Dead Money, Lonesome Road and Old World Blues. Sawyer wrote Honest Hearts, which probably accounts for its more dry and grounded approach. I think the main story person on New Vegas was Jorge Gonzales, who's no longer with Obsidian.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

LA Noire did it few months earlier

dead

Deus Ex HR definitely did truncated dialogue options right. Tone markers are good as long as they don't limit things by writing the dialogue with a set core of them in mind but rather label the dialogue afterwards to each specific line. It can be a bit annoying when your character only ever has 4-6 different emotions/approaches when talking and responding in dialogue. The best part about it though is showing at least the first line of dialogue the character will say as it is the perfect way to dispel any ambiguity the system introduces.

We haven't seen much for FO4's dialogue so it's hard to gauge just how well or bad their shorthand is when it comes to the responses. I've generally not have much issue with this kind of system in most games, but there have been a few where the shorthand can be wildly inconsistent with what your character actually says. Hope they got it right.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

LA Noire did it few months earlier

Hahaha

I remember ME1 having an early scene in the Normandy about Liara and how she's an alien and if you chose a very passive sounding "I stand by Liara joining us" or something dialogue choice, Shepard would suddenly get super mad at Ashley. Like, what the fuck.

It's mind-boggling how some people actually defend this stuff.

Originally Posted by ZombieSupaStar

You know what I hated in new Vegas? That if u didn't make a speech check it showed it right in the dialogue before you chose it. It should have just listed it used a check and left it ambiguous. Oh and penalize you for a reload like the hacking game did.

Nah, I was fine with that personally. And the dialogue for failed checks was hilarious at times.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT

LA Noire did it few months earlier

That's exactly what made me realize I didn't like that game. Moment after moment of that. So frustrating.

Originally Posted by Solaire of Astora

I'm not trying to excuse anything. While I can't say I'm thrilled with the voiced protagonist, they're obviously going for more *shudders* "cinematic" storytelling. And far be it from me to try to change a developer's artistic vision. If you don't like it, you can either put up with it, vote with your wallet, or wait for a mod to fix it. Those are your options.

I swear, sometimes people forget that the game developers aren't tailor making the game to your tastes. You have a right to dislike it, but to call it "bad development choices" at this stage because it doesn't cater to your every desire is ridiculous.

Write out 15k lines of dialogues? No, no. That's what the subtitle files are for.

I don't necessarily like it either, but not enough to put me off the game. Again... You have three options.

Bolded part, I fail at thinking and totally missed whole aspect of sub files being a thing.

"Bad development choices" was poor choice of words by me as what is good or bad in the game is very individual thing and very rarely there is things like e.g. sun in BF3 that actually makes gameplay worse across the board for community. Personally I'm fine with voiced PC and it can add its own layer of immersion to some. Will people pass up on F4 because of voiced PC or how current dialogue wheel seems to work? I would guess that some will, but most will live with it so they can experience new Fallout.

Originally Posted by Lukas Japonicus

It's most likely a placeholder.

I don't know... <5 months is pretty close to still have placeholders. The game will go gold in <4 months.